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Re: Ladino Proverbs and Sayings (Waaay long!)

From:Grandsire, C.A. <grandsir@...>
Date:Friday, December 10, 1999, 13:53
FFlores wrote:
> > Very interesting proverbs. I like Ladino! > > > > 7. Roba pitas, besa _mesusot_. > > > He steals bread, and kisses the mezuzah. > > > > I like this one, a proverb on hypocricy, I take it? > > And what are _pitas_? >
It's a kind of bread, very often found in the Eastern and Southern parts of the Mediterranean Sea, or in Middle East. I like this bread.
> > > 17. Paciencia es paz y sciencia > > > Patience is peace and wisdom. > > > > Great pun. > > Yes, and you can keep it in Spanish too! >
I like it very much too! As far as I can see, Ladino is very near to Spanish. I would say a dialect, or is it considered a separate language?
> > > 19. La hambre y el frio traen a la puerta del enemigo. > > > Cold and hunger bring one to the enemy's door. > > > > Hmm, I'd thought that Ladino kept the initial /f/'s that Spanish has > > lost, but _hambre_ here seems to disprove that. > > I have a question here: I know that _hombre_ somehow came from > _homo_ (in some inflected form, I guess), and I think _hambre_ > is cognate with 'famine' (is it _fame_ in Italian?). Do you know > how -br- got in there? (I assume hom-r >> hom-br as usual, but > why the -r?) >
The inflection of _homo_ is based on the stem _homin-_ (from genitive _hominis_) as the one of the word "famine" comes from (I think it's _famin-_). So it's not unlikely that hombre and hambre look alike. As for the origin of the -r, I would see the following evolution: - loss of the medial i - loss of the the nasalisation of 'n' in the cluster 'mn' by dissimilation, leading to a flap 'r' (I tried it and find it very likely). - insertion of a 'b' between the m and the r as usual. Well, just a guess from a non-linguist who knows nearly nothing of the evolution of Spanish from Latin. :)
> BTW _hambre_ is masculine in Spanish. _La_ becomes _el_ before > /a/, but we say _los hambres_. > > > > 27. Lo das la mano, y quiere el pie. > > > Give him an inch and he wants a foot. > > > > Interesting, _lo_ instead of _le_? > > That's common in the speech of certain people here (sound very > very uneducated). OTOH Spaniards use _le_ for personal *direct* > objects (_le vi_ 'I saw him') while at least Rioplatense has > _lo_. >
I've heard of those phenomena as loi'smo, le'ismo (like the use of vos instead of tu' as voi'smo) in my Spanish classes.
> > > 34. Culebra que no mi morde, que viva mil an~os. > > > > _mi morde_, not _me morde_? Interesting. > > (Which would be _muerde_, in fact.) > > > > 41. Non mi mires la color, mi'rami la savor. > > > > There's that _mi_ for _me_ again. Interesting. Interesting, also, that > > they've kept _non_ > > >From the Quixote: '!Non fuyades, cobardes!' (= 'No huyais'). :-) >
Was that the speech of the time when it is supposed to take place, or is it again a way to show the madness of Quixote, misusing "old" Spanish to feel important?
> > > 52. Caras vemos, corazones no conosemos. > > > > Question: does Ladino distinguish between {z} and {s}? If so, it's > > interesting that they have _conosemos_ instead of _conocemos_ > > There was _conosca_ before, too. >
Strange that at some places they keep the z and the c and not at others.
> > > > > 67. Fas el bien, no mires a quien. > > > > Hmm, interesting, another /f/ retained. > > And another <s> for <z> (or <c> or <g>). > > > > 85. Los fijos al rubi', el marido al tcharchi'. > > > > Why is it spelt _tcharchi'_? > > And what is it? >
I second that question (and what is rubi' already?)
> Very interesting indeed! >
> --Pablo Flores >
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