Re: Ladino Proverbs and Sayings (Waaay long!)

Am 12/09 18:51  Nik Taylor yscrifef:
> andrew wrote:
> > 7. Roba pitas, besa _mesusot_.
> >         He steals bread, and kisses the mezuzah.
>
> I like this one, a proverb on hypocricy, I take it?
>
That's my opinion.  I like it too.

> > 14. Dime con quien conoscas, te dire quien sois.
> >         Tell me whom you know, I'll tell you who you are.
>
> Why is it _conoscas_ and _sois_?  Judging from Standard Spanish, the
> first looks like second person singular, while the second would be
> plural.  Is this a typo, or a difference between the two languages?
>
All I can say is that it is what I copied from the book.  Too much
information is missing here.

> > 19. La hambre y el frio traen a la puerta del enemigo.
> >         Cold and hunger bring one to the enemy's door.
>
> Hmm, I'd thought that Ladino kept the initial /f/'s that Spanish has
> lost, but _hambre_ here seems to disprove that.
>
I wondered about that too.

> > 52. Caras vemos, corazones no conosemos.
>
> Question: does Ladino distinguish between {z} and {s}?  If so, it's
> interesting that they have _conosemos_ instead of _conocemos_
>
I suspect the original text was in Hebrew and not in Latin letters at
all.  I wish the transliterator had used a consistent system of
transliteration that reflected the Ladino orthography rather than the
resconstructed Spanish spellings.

> > 65. Bendicha tripa de madre que tal fijo pario'.
>
> Hmm, why _fijo_ here, but _hija_ in 26?
>
Maybe there are different sources for individual proverbs.  I have
looked through the book and the only reference I can find on the Ladino
Proverbs and Sayings comes from the Preface where it says "sayings and
proverbs popular in all Ladino-speaking communities."(p 11)  Also
quoting from the Introduction: "Most of the traditionalists - who were
mainly Orthodox - chose the Ottoman Empire; the others, who stemmed from
the aristocracy or the upper middle class and were more fully
assimilated into secular life and their surrounding cultures, selected
the countries of the Christian West as their new homes."(p 12)  This
could have provided grounds for divergence.

> > 75. En la ciuda' de ciegos, beato quien tiene u ojo
>
> Strange - ciuda' for _ciudad_ and _u_ for _un_!
>
_ciuda'_ is correct, but _u_ is my mistake, please read _un_.

> > 104. Y el _haHam_ yerra en la _Tora_.
>
> Translation?
>
Oops, missed one:

        Even the rabbi can make a mistake in the Torah.

> I'm wondering - are these proverbs collected from different times and/or
> places?  That might explain the apparent inconsitencies, like the /f/
> that sometimes remains, and _does_ in 48, and _dos_ elsewhere.
>
That's my suspicion also, as well as I have no details on how consistent
the translator was.

- andrew.
--
Andrew Smith, Intheologus                       hobbit@earthlight.co.nz

                      "Piskie, Piskie, say Amen
                   Doon on your knees and up agen."

                    "Presbie, Presbie, dinna bend;
                   Sit ye doon on mon's chief end."
                               - Attributions unknown.