Re: Pronunciation of Japanese "j"

At 01:08 7.12.2003, Andreas Johansson wrote:

>Quoting Benct Philip Jonsson <bpj@...>:
>
> > >But unless my memory is failing me completely, finlandssvenska tends
> to [S]
> > >for /S/ and [C] for /C/?
> >
> > AFAIK they have [s\] and [ts\] respectively,
> > which makes it kind of weird from a Rikssvenska
> > perspective.
>
>Kind of weird yes. Hm, I guess my memory is then really failing; I find it
>hard to believe I'd hear any affricate as [C].
Your expectations of what it 'should' be. Listerners
do that all the time!

> > >(To any foreigner think that seems like a reasonable
> > >pronuncation, I assure you it's not!)
> >
> > Rather it is the traditional IPA notation which
> > is unreasonable.  I have for a long time used
> > /x/, and recently switched to /s\/.  Damn the
> > Norrlanders with their [S] for /x/.
>
>I tend to stick to the traditional, on the ground that it's the most likely to
>be familiar to people. But it's indeed quite unreasonable.
>
> > *Note to furriners: the North comprises half of Sweden,
> > Central Sweden a third of the rest, and the South a little
>  ...snip...
> > My dialects are both West Gautic-Norwegian border dialects
> > while Andreas' is probably Central with some influences
> > from Gautic.
>
>That would indeed be the case, I guess. People are rarely able to locate me
>based on by 'lect; you can trust them not to guess Scania, Gotland or
>Norrland, but I've heard pretty much everything else.
Unlike me.  Older people from Gothenburg nail me down
as a Bohuslän immigré quite easily, while the younger,
Gothenburgers and those from other part of the country
as easily identify me as Gothenburger.  Personally I
think I keep Göteborgska and Bohusländska apart pretty
well, but there must be something about my intonation
that those old-timers catch.

> > >Niftily, your description of [s\] is frikken identical to how one of my
> > German
> > >teachers described [C], which means I'm probably using it for German /C/.
> >
> > Not unlikely, if you are referring to your Swédish
> > German teachers.
>
>That was one of the Swedish German teachers, yes. (She too has [S] for /C/,
>btw.)
>
>[snip]
>
> > >I do /S/=[x], /C/=[S], /rs/=[s`], /s/=[s_d], assuming I've got the IPA/CXS
> > >arightly for these. Four different sounds, at any rate.
> >
> > I thought so, but if you réally have /C/=[S], /rs/=[s`]
> > the distinction is razor thin!
>
>Again, I can't swear I've got the IPA right, but they're indeed close. The
>articulatory difference is basically that the former is apical and the later
>is sublaminal; the POA is a bit further back for the later, too.
Strangely I have never heard any Swedish /C/=[S] speaker.
I'll have to listen out for it!  (FWIW I had to have the
Oslo S/C merger pointed out to me before hearing it...)

> > >Merging /C/ and /rs/ would cause minimal trouble, since the former
> tends to
> > be
> > >found in syllable-initial position and the later in syllable-final, but I
> > for
> > >one is not doing it.
> >       ^^
> > Surely you mean _am not doing it_?
>
>Indeed. Again, person/number agreement on verbs have always been one of the
>things I find difficult in foreign languages; today I caught myself saying
>_ich köntest_, which probably is enough to drive any real German to despair.
Wait until they hear me, with a native pronunciation,
mix up the genders and imperfekte! :)

> > Actually some Gbg kids merge /rs/ with /x/ when trying
> > to posh up their 'lect, leading to pronounciations
> > like ["bruxa] for 'brother'!.
>
>The barbarism!
Yeah, and my stepsons seem to over-use [x] as a kind
of joke, saying things like /"baxa/ for 'fecare'
and /lyxna/ for 'listen', and their kid brother
picks up on that more than willingly...

What's more my stepdaughter (who does not do the
abovementioned) accuses **me** of speaking 'snobbgöteborgska'!


/BP 8^)
--
B.Philip Jonsson mailto:melrochX@melroch.se (delete X)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
                A h-ammen ledin i phith!                \ \
     __  ____ ____    _____________ ____ __   __ __     / /
     \ \/___ \\__ \  /___  _____/\ \\__ \\ \  \ \\ \   / /
     / /   / /  /  \    / /Melroch\ \_/ // /  / // /  / /
    / /___/ /_ / /\ \  / /'Aestan ~\_  // /__/ // /__/ /
   /_________//_/  \_\/ /Eowine __  / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
  ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
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"A coincidence, as we say in Middle-Earth" (JRR Tolkien)

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