Re: CHAT: affricates/grammar help/intransitivity/free word order

On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 21:51:44 -0500, J. 'Mach' Wust <j_mach_wust@...>
wrote:

>On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 02:13:51 +0100, Andreas Johansson <andjo@...> wrote:
>
>>Quoting "Pascal A. Kramm" <pkramm@...>:
>>
>>> On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 16:29:13 +0100, Andreas Johansson <andjo@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> >Quoting "Pascal A. Kramm" <pkramm@...>:
>>> >
>>> >> >German has the labiodental affricate [pf]
>>> >>
>>> >> Yes, but only in the middle of the word or at the end. Word-initial it
>>> >> is "f".
>>> >
>>> >Many varieties, yes. Duden German, no.
>>>
>>> Duden German != spoken German in most areas. Not in all, but at least in
>>> a lot of cases, so you're better off not taking it as a guideline for
>>> anything. In essence, the Duden is quite useful to stop a desk or chair
>>> from wobbling, but it's very unsuitable to make qualitative statements
>>> about the actually spoken German.
>
>Your own variety of standard German seems to be much worse, since it has
>long consonants, which is definitly not found in most varieties of standard
>German.
First, I never said something about my dialect having long consonants, no
idea where you got that from...
Second, just because my variety has some features which you're apparently
unable to handle still doesn't give you the right to condemn it and classify
it as "much worse" than any other.
The Duden variety has also lots of features which are definitely not found
in most varieties of Standard German.

>And don't forget that it's the Duden variety that is teached abroad,
>not yours. So if your making any assertions on German on this list, you'd
>better make them on the Duden variety, not on your local one.
Sad, but true - it's the same problem as with English, where you won't find
 much native speakers who speak exactly that Oxford English you're taught in
school/college.

>The prescriptive standard, that is, the variety of standard German that is
>teached abroad, equals the Duden variety, and it is very differnt from
>Pascal Kramms local variety. He seems to be stuck in the out of date point
>of view that there's only one pronunciation of standard German, and for a
>reason I can't figure he assumes that his own pronunciation (which is very
>peculiar) is that only pronuciation of standard German, which is definitly
>wrong.
I never said anything like that, don't make it appear as if I did. The above
is rather true for you, who is apparently of the opinion that the Duden
variety is the only valid one, while you scorn every other variety of
Standard German, whereas those are at least as valid.

>Standard German varies from region to region as is pointed out in the
>recently published book "Varietätenwörterbuch des Deutschen" by De Gruyter:
>http://www.degruyter.de/rs/bookSingle.cfm?id=IS-3110165759-1&l=D
>This is a lecture I recommend to Pascal Kramm. It will show him that his own
>local variety of standard German is not the only one.
Rather, it will show you that the Duden variety is not the only valid one.

>Many deny that any variety of standard German is more standar than the
>others. But if there is any variety that is more standard than the others,
>then it's the prescriptive standard of old, the variety teached abroad, the
>variety pointed out in the pronunciation Duden, no matter what Pascal Kramm
>believes.
There you go again... the prescriptive Duden variety is certainly not the
least bit better than any other variety of Standard German, no matter what
J. Mach Wust believes (who is even too cheap to sign his mails with his
proper first name - perhaps he's just too scared someone will go after him
if he knows it)

--
Pascal A. Kramm, author of:
Chatiga: http://www.choton.org/chatiga/
Choton: http://www.choton.org
Ichwara Prana: http://www.choton.org/ichwara/
Skälansk: http://www.choton.org/sk/
Advanced English: http://www.choton.org/ae/

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