Re: CHAT: affricates/grammar help/intransitivity/free word order

On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 02:13:51 +0100, Andreas Johansson <andjo@...> wrote:

>Quoting "Pascal A. Kramm" <pkramm@...>:
>
>> On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 16:29:13 +0100, Andreas Johansson <andjo@...> wrote:
>>
>> >Quoting "Pascal A. Kramm" <pkramm@...>:
>> >
>> >> >German has the labiodental affricate [pf]
>> >>
>> >> Yes, but only in the middle of the word or at the end. Word-initial it
>> >> is "f".
>> >
>> >Many varieties, yes. Duden German, no.
>>
>> Duden German != spoken German in most areas. Not in all, but at least in
>> a lot of cases, so you're better off not taking it as a guideline for
>> anything. In essence, the Duden is quite useful to stop a desk or chair
>> from wobbling, but it's very unsuitable to make qualitative statements
>> about the actually spoken German.
Your own variety of standard German seems to be much worse, since it has
long consonants, which is definitly not found in most varieties of standard
German. And don't forget that it's the Duden variety that is teached abroad,
not yours. So if your making any assertions on German on this list, you'd
better make them on the Duden variety, not on your local one.


>I know that many varieties of spoken German differs from the Duden standard
>on this point; indeed, I said so in the very message you quote above. You
>however, asserted that intial 'pf' is [f] as an unqualified fact - this is
>simply false for a great number of varieties, to which comes that
>statements on unqualified "German" will usually be taken as refering to the
>prescriptive standard.
The prescriptive standard, that is, the variety of standard German that is
teached abroad, equals the Duden variety, and it is very differnt from
Pascal Kramms local variety. He seems to be stuck in the out of date point
of view that there's only one pronunciation of standard German, and for a
reason I can't figure he assumes that his own pronunciation (which is very
peculiar) is that only pronuciation of standard German, which is definitly
wrong. Standard German varies from region to region as is pointed out in the
recently published book "Varietätenwörterbuch des Deutschen" by De Gruyter:
http://www.degruyter.de/rs/bookSingle.cfm?id=IS-3110165759-1&l=D
This is a lecture I recommend to Pascal Kramm. It will show him that his own
local variety of standard German is not the only one.

Many deny that any variety of standard German is more standar than the
others. But if there is any variety that is more standard than the others,
then it's the prescriptive standard of old, the variety teached abroad, the
variety pointed out in the pronunciation Duden, no matter what Pascal Kramm
believes.

gru@s:
j. 'mach' wust