Re: USAGE: (Mis)Naming a Language

The distinction for me is that |Latin| has neither a [d] NOR a [t]
(except in careful speech, when it has the latter); it has a [?].   It's
true that in American, intervocalic /t/ normally goes to [d]; we have a
[d] in "bottle", not a [?].  But there are exceptions, mostly words that
end in /t@n/ ~ /tn=/: Latin, satin, gratin, button, mutton, etc, all
have [?] for the /t/.  For me, the vocalic n is not the issue, as I also
have one of those after [d] in words like Aladdin, Madden, McFadden,
hidden, sodden, etc.

On Thu, Oct 28, 2004 at 02:19:40PM -0400, Kit La Touche wrote:
> i think the real issue is one of both syllables being in the same metrical
> foot: [l&?n=] for "latin" and something like [l&4n=] for "ladin" - the
> latter is definitely voiced.
>
> hm.  saying "latter" ([l&d@r\]) makes me think it might not be feet after
> all, but the syllabic n, as charlie points out.  but i'm *definitely* not
> using any [}] in what i'm saying.
>
> curious.
>
> -kit
>
> On Thu, 28 Oct 2004, caeruleancentaur wrote:
>
> > In conlang@yahoogroups.com, Carsten Becker <naranoieati@B...> wrote:
> > >>Heh, you Americans would pronounce "Ladin" and "Latin" the same when
> > >>speaking uncarefully ["l&:4In], wouldn't you?
> > Not me!  I'm a bit of a neophyte with x-sampa, but let's see what I
> > can come up with.
> >
> > ladin is /l{d}n=/
> >
> > latin is /l{t}n=/
> >
> > I'm trying to show that the d and t are begun with the tongue against
> > the alveolus, but there is no oral release of air.  Instead the
> > center of the tongue seems to rise to the palate to form the n and
> > the air is released through the nose.  /I/ is never heard.
> >
> > The minimal pairs maddens/matins, sadden/satin are produced in the
> > same way, mutatis mutandis.
> >
> > I believe that Carsten is basing his supposition on the American
> > practice of voicing intervocal voiceless consonants, e.g., latter
> > =ladder.  But in this case there is no intervocal voicing since there
> > are not two vowels involved.  There is the /{/, but there is no /I/.
> >
> > Charlie