Re: Ashamed of [T]? (fy: /T/ -> /t_d/?)

On Tuesday, November 2, 2004, at 08:44 , Jan van Steenbergen wrote:

>  --- Ray Brown skrzypszy:
>> It seems to me a slightly odd mentality to claim that pronouncing
>> English or modern Greek _properly_ is something to be ashamed of.
>
> I didn't say that. First of all, I was merely trying to explain why
> sóme people feel a bit awkward about producing the sound. And in case
> I need to be more explicit: I absolutely do nót belong to that
> category at all.
Phew!! I am both glad that you have made it quite clear that I
misunderstood you and also that I did misunderstand you. I apologize
unreservedly for any hurt it gave you & am only too happy to be in the
wrong on this one.

I can understand feeling awkward about pronouncing unfamiliar sounds. But
that does not address the original claim (Can't recall who made it now) of
being _ashamed_ to pronounce [T]. Like Marcos, I find it a ludicrous
statement; and if the reason is "because people may think I have a defect"
  I personally find that contemptible.

[snip]
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> On Tuesday, November 2, 2004, at 10:28 , J. 'Mach' Wust wrote:
>
> On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 08:44:23 +0000, Jan van Steenbergen
> <ijzeren_jan@...> wrote:
[snip]

>> Again, I didn't say that. What I said, is that [T], when used in a
>> language that does not have it, is *perceived* as a speech defect by
>> some people, myself not included, and that this perception may even
>> be generalised to *all* languages by some fools, again myself not
>> included).
>
> Don't include me either!
I didn't - indeed, in another mail I made it clear I did not.

[snip]
> It's similar with the uvular [X]. People who don't speak a language with
> this sound often don't like it. There are common jokes that this sound is
> a
> throat disease and must hurt if pronounced correctly.
I haven't heard the latter - but I do know many people find the sound
unpleasant. Some people likewise find Welsh /K/ unpleasant. But finding
sounds pleasant or unpleasant is a very subjective thing, the same with
finding languages pleasant or unpleasant. It is well known, for example,
that JRRT found Welsh attractive but found Gaelic harsh & unattractive.
But that is a very different matter from being ashamed or disgusted.

>>> I agree entirely with Joe. "Disgusted" does have very strong
>>> connotations - and to someone of my generation, I regret to say,
>>> Pascal's sentiments seem rather disturbing.
>>
>> Unless it was merely a matter of a non-native speaker using a word
>> the wrong way, I agree.
>
> Which wouldn't surprise me, since I think this word is a typical faux ami.
> The connotation it gives to me is of |dis|: 'negation', |gust|: 'like' (as
> in Spanish 'gusta'); that is |disgust|: 'not-like'.
No - it's from the Old French verb _desgouster_ "to cause distaste".  The
second part, _gouster_ (mod. Fr., goûter) is "to taste" from Latin
_gustare_. "Disgusting" originally meant 'distaste, disfavor, displeasure'
  and is used that way in Milton, Johnson & Jane Austen. But at some time -
was it in the Victorian era? - before the 20th century it had come to mean
"extreme distaste, loathing", that is it implies moral and/or physical
repugnance. It is, as Joe says, a strong word.

> ............... corresponding rather to
> German _Ekel, Abscheu_
Yes, exactly!

I hope very much it is a case of a non-native speaker mis-using the word.
Indeed, as Pascal has since written "I feel slightly annoyed by the th", I'
ll assume this was so.

Ray
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http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
ray.brown@freeuk.com
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Anything is possible in the fabulous Celtic twilight,
which is not so much a twilight of the gods
as of the reason."      [JRRT, "English and Welsh" ]