Re: Ashamed of [T]? (fy: /T/ -> /t_d/?)

 --- Ray Brown skrzypszy:

> >>> In Dutch, [T] can only be heard in the speech of people with a
> >>> speech defect. And I think that's the answer to your question.
>
> No it does not.
>
> Fairly obviously, [T] will be heard only in the speech of those
> people who have the speech impediment known as a 'lisp' in those
> languages which do not have /T/.
Indeed. That's what I meant.

> It seems to me a slightly odd mentality to claim that pronouncing
> English or modern Greek _properly_ is something to be ashamed of.
I didn't say that. First of all, I was merely trying to explain why
sóme people feel a bit awkward about producing the sound. And in case
I need to be more explicit: I absolutely do nót belong to that
category at all. In fact, I quite like the sound (otherwise I would
never have introduced it in my Slavic conlang, Vozgian). Secondly, I
never used the word "disgusting", which indeed was very poorly
chosen. I think I used the word "embarrassed", or "uncomfortable",
instead.

> When the reason given is that [T] is a mark of 'speech defect', it
> seems to me just a little insulting to those members of this list
> who do have various physical disfunctions.
Again, I didn't say that. What I said, is that [T], when used in a
language that does not have it, is *perceived* as a speech defect by
some people, myself not included, and that this perception may even
be generalised to *all* languages by some fools, again myself not
included). If my words came across as insulting to anybody, I
apologise for that. But remember that I don't claim my English is
good enough to express my thoughts properly; from this point of view,
the non-native speakers on the list always have a slight
disadvantage.

> How I abominate these silly prejudices!
That makes two of us.

> >>> Even though the effect is not the same when Dutch people
> >>> speak English, many of them are hesitant to use it even
> >>> there. It's like the fear to get undressed before entering
> >>> a sauna, even if you know that all the others are undressed,
> >>> too. ;)
>
> Then maybe you shouldn't be taking a sauna.
I, on the other hand, think it is a very good reason to take it a
couple of times; otherwise they'll never overcome it.

> I agree entirely with Joe. "Disgusted" does have very strong
> connotations - and to someone of my generation, I regret to say,
> Pascal's sentiments seem rather disturbing.
Unless it was merely a matter of a non-native speaker using a word
the wrong way, I agree.

Jan

=====
"If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping in a closed
room with a mosquito."

Relay 10: http://steen.free.fr/relay10/


	
	
		
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