Re: Ashamed of [T]? (fy: /T/ -> /t_d/?)

On Sunday, October 31, 2004, at 10:15 , Joe wrote:

> Pascal A. Kramm wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 06:46:48 +0000, Jan van Steenbergen
>> <ijzeren_jan@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> --- Mark J. Reed skrzypszy:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> I only added that as an aside in my post, whose primary purpose
>>>> was to ask why some Germans are "ashamed" to say [T]. Feeling
>>>> ashamed about producing a phone just strikes me as odd.  I still
>>>> don't understand it.
Despite the replies, it still strikes me as odd. Unfortunately, I think I
understand - but I do not like what I am understanding.

>>>>
>>> In Dutch, [T] can only be heard in the speech of people with a speech
>>> defect. And I think that's the answer to your question.
No it does not.

Fairly obviously, [T] will be heard only in the speech of those people who
have the speech impediment known as a 'lisp' in those languages which do
not have /T/. But in English, for example, [K] occurs only regularly in
the speech of those unfortunate to have a defect which prevents /s/ (or
sometimes just /sl/) being pronounced in the standard way;
  but that does not make me feel at all ashamed at pronouncing Welsh /K/.

It seems to me a slightly odd mentality to claim that pronouncing English
or modern Greek _properly_ is something to be ashamed of. When the reason
given is that [T] is a mark of 'speech defect', it seems to me just a
little insulting to those members of this list who do have various
physical disfunctions.

Also, if those who always pronounce /s/ as [T] are suffering a speech
defect, does it not also follow logically that those who always pronounce
/T/ as [s] are equally suffering a speech defect? Is not the logic of this
attitude that only those who actually pronounce /s/ as [s] and /T/ as [T]
have no defect?

Indeed, the more ignorant of my fellow countrymen do believe that the
supposed inability of Germans to pronounce [T], [D] and [w] is because of
a genetic speech defect.

How I abominate these silly prejudices!

>>> Even though
>>> the effect is not the same when Dutch people speak English, many of
>>> them are hesitant to use it even there. It's like the fear to get
>>> undressed before entering a sauna, even if you know that all the
>>> others are undressed, too. ;)
Then maybe you shouldn't be taking a sauna.

>> It's exactly the same in German - either th sound can only be heard from
>> people having a speech defect. As such, the sound is very undesirable,
>> and
>> that's why I wrote a German would be rather *disgusted* by it (and
>> certainly
>> not *ashamed*).
>>
>>
>
> 'Disgusted' has extremely strong connotations.  I wouldn't use it unless
> it literally made you feel nauseous.
I agree entirely with Joe. "Disgusted" does have very strong connotations
- and to someone of my generation, I regret to say, Pascal's sentiments
seem rather disturbing.

Ray
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ray.brown@freeuk.com
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Anything is possible in the fabulous Celtic twilight,
which is not so much a twilight of the gods
as of the reason."      [JRRT, "English and Welsh" ]

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