Re: dialectal diversity in English

Carlos Thompson scripsit:
> Chris Bates wrote:
>
>
> > I know the difference between gaelic (learned a bit once) and english,
> > and I'm talking about a dialect of english not gaelic. Its possible that
> > they could be bilingual and that that could make their english even more
> > difficult to understand but I am not getting gaelic and english
> > confused. And I do not mean african creoles either.
>
> Well, in the whole continuum of languages in Scotland you have two families:
> Germanic and Celtic.  In the germanic family you have two "languages":
> Scottish English (this is English as spoken natively by
> Scots who speak English) is different than Scot, if I have correctly
> understood John.
Except that the language is called "Scots" (the -s here is a variant of
-ish rather than a plural), you have.

> Not sure on the distribution, but if I am not mistaken, (Scottish) English is
> spoken in Glasgow, Gaelic is spoken in the Hebrides and Scot is spoken in
> the North.
Scots is spoken widely throughout the entire lowlands of Scotland, including
the inner cities, though of course not by everybody: there are many people
who speak only English, and there is a very typical diglossic situation
with English as the H, Scots as the L language.

The Highlands were formerly the Gaelic-speaking areas, and there English
rather than Scots is now dominant, AFAIU.  This is also common in
language shift situations: the Welsh who don't speak Welsh generally
speak a more Welshy English (which they have inherited) than do the
Welsh who natively speak Welsh (who typically learn an English closer to
the standard).

> About Scot, I have only seen the examples posted in this list.
http://www.siliconglen.com/Scotland/3_2.html

> Now.  Is Scot a different language than English or just the most northern
> dialect of Scotish English?  Ethnologue claims they are different.
There's no question that it *was* a separate language:

# The Scottish leid, wi its Lochlan colorin, wis noo [1450] different eneuch to
# be cryed a saiprit tung an the by-leid aroon the Forth suin becam the
# national leid o keing an cowmoner alike. The makar Gavin Douglas (wha
# kent 'Inglish' Inglish weel) wis aiblins the first kenspeckle scriever
# tae own the difference an gie the tung its new nam. The makars Henryson,
# Dunbar, Lyndsay an Douglas hisel aw played a pairt in makkin Scots a
# heid European leid wi a warld-cless leeterature an staunin. In a wey,
# this wis noo the tap o the watter fur Scots, yaised in ilka aspeck o
# Scottish life, a rael an hail naitional leid. Frae nou on the Scots tung
# (an its speakers) wid hae tae thole ane dunt efter anithir.
#       --Clive P.L. Young

Approximate translation: The Scottish language, with its Norse coloring,
was now [1450] different enough to be called a separate language, and
the dialect around the Forth soon became the national language of king
and commoner alike.  The poet Gavin Douglas (who knew the English of
England well) was perhaps the first distinguishable writer to
acknowledge the difference and give the language its new name [formerly
it was just called 'English].  The poets Henryson, Dunbar, Lyndsay, and
Douglas himself all played a part in making Scots a significant
European language with a world-class literature and [legal] standing.
In a way, this was now the high point for Scots, used in every aspect
of Scottish life, a genuine and complete national language.  From now
on the Scots language (and its speakers) would have to endure one
blow after another.

> Ethnologue also claims Catalan and Valencian are the same and I have seen
> quite a few flames in Spanish newsgroups discuting this isue and giving
> examples of contrasting texts between both "languages".
You can construct contrasting texts between British and American English,
but it would be far-fetched to claim they were different languages:

        The American operates the elevator to reach his apartment,
        whereas the Briton works the lift to reach his flat.
                --Ivor Brown

--
He made the Legislature meet at one-horse       John Cowan
tank-towns out in the alfalfa belt, so that     jcowan@reutershealth.com
hardly nobody could get there and most of       http://www.reutershealth.com
the leaders would stay home and let him go      http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
to work and do things as he pleased.    --Mencken, _Declaration of Independence_

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