Re: "Roumant", or whatever it may be called. Part V

En réponse à Dan Jones <feuchard@...>:

> Christophe Grandsire wrote:
>
>
> > Well, two weeks ago I promised I would tell about verbs in
> > "Roumant", so here it is!
>
> Hooray!
>
:)

> > THE VERB:
> [snip description of conjugations. Isn't this similar to the way French
> is
> taught in France?]
>
>
> > The simple tenses:
> > There are nine simple tenses, corresponding to 4 personal moods:
> > - the indicative present,
> > - the indicative imperfect,
> > - the indicative simple past,
>
> How often is this used? Is it used rarely, like French, or as the
> stanard
> past tense, as in Spanish?
>
Kind of in between in fact. It is normally the standard past tense (while the
perfect is really like a present perfect), but in colloquial language the
perfect has taken over, especially for near past.

> > - the indicative future,
> > - the subjunctive present,
> > - the subjunctive imperfect,
> > - the subjunctive future,
> > - the conditional present,
> > - the imperative present.
> > Note the existence of a subjunctive future.
>
> Noted.
>
:)

> > The indicative present:
> > It's formed from the radical (infinitive without the ending) to
> > which are added
> > different endings for the different persons, and different from
> > each group (the
> > order is obviously: 1sg, 2sg, 3sg, 1pl, 2pl, 3pl):
> > - 1st group verbs: -e, -as, -at, -ams, -és, -am
> > - 2nd group verbs: -e, -es, -et, -ems, -és, -em
> > - 3rd group verbs: -ie, -ies, -iet, -issims, -issés, -issim
>
> Very "Old French-esque"!
>
Indeed, and the funniest of it is that I had no idea how Old-French was when I
designed this :)) .

> >
> > The indicative simple past:
> > It's also formed from the radical, to which special endings are added:
> > - 1st group: -ai, -ass, -ó, -âme, -âte, -âre
> > - 2nd group: -ì, -ess, -é, -ême, -ête, -êre
> > - 3rd group: -ì, -iss, -é, -îme, -îte, -îre
> > It's the tense most full of irregularities.
>
> Details? Irregularities as in French past historic, where it seems to be
> derived from the ppt of irregular verbs?
>
Yeah, irregularities like the ones found in Romance languages like French,
Spanish and Italian, with all kinds of different radicals used depending on the
verb. I'll talk more about it if I send other verb paradigms.

> >
> > The subjunctive future:
> > It is formed from the same base as the indicative future, to
> > which are added the
> > endings of the verb avôre in subjunctive present (in fact the
> > same endings as
> > the 1st and 2nd groups).
>
> I like this! It's completely logical, too! Why didn't other Romance
> langs do
> this too?
>
Only Portuguese does it, and as far as I know the subjunctive future in
Portuguese is kept analytic ("to have" in subjunctive present + infinitive). I'm
not completely sure though.

> >
> > The impersonal forms:
> > There are four impersonal forms (one one which is already explained):
> the
> > infinitive, the present participle, the past participle and the
> gerund.
>
> Gerund? As in Latin- a sort of "future participle"?.
>
No, it is used mostly like the Spanish gerund, except that the formation is
different.

> >
> > The past participle:
> > It's formed from the radical to which is added:
> > - 1st group: -àt
> > - 2nd group: -èt
> > - 3rd group: -ìt
> > It also can be used as an adjective, and also agrees in gender
> > and number with
> > the noun it completes.
>
> Almost exacly the same as Arveunan, only the "2nd group", the -re verbs
> has
> the ppt. -út.
>
He he... Verbs in -ôre have their past participle in -ùt in "Roumant" :) .

> > The gerund:
> > It's an adverbial form, which is simply formed like an adverb
>
> Consider above question answered. Can it be used like Latin, though, as
> in
> "quod erat demonstrandum"?
>
In this example, it's not the gerund but the verbal adjective (which has a
connotation of necessity that the gerund doesn't have). The gerund and the
verbal adjective had most forms in common though, so I understand that you mixed
them together :) .

>
> Quickie here: does Roumant use the double compound past tense (ça a eu
> payé)
> or the "après avoir" construction? IIRC Henriette Walter mentions in "Le
> français dans tous les sens" that the doupe compund is used very
> frequently
> in the south.
>
No, "Roumant" doesn't use them, it stays on simple compound forms :) . As for
the double compound forms, I was about to send a post about that, because it
seems that they've become so widespread that you can now find them in the
Bescherelle (which is the book _par excellence_ used by teachers and pupils at
school). Strangely enough, I never heard it nor used it...

> > The passive voice:
> > Like in French and other modern Romance tongues, the passive
> > voice, when it
> > exists (that's to say, only with transitive verbs) is formed by
> > adding the past
> > participle (which then behaves like a predicate adjective and
> > thus agrees in
> > gender and number with the subject) to the auxiliary stêre: to be
> > conjugated in
> > the chosen tense.
>
> Also uses reflexive verbs to for a "pseudo-passive", yes? As in Spanish
> Italian and indeed, your own mother tongue. Why are all these questions
> about usage?
>
:) Indeed, it uses reflexive verbs like in French, Spanish and Italian. It uses
also pronominal forms to mark possession of the object (like in the "Fight
language extinction: invent a language", the "invent a language" is translated
as "bastie-ti une lingue": "build yourself a language" for "build your
language").

>
> > I think I will
> > anyway make a special post for îre, avôre and stêre, because they are
> very
> > particular even among irregular verbs (especially îre whose
> > complete conjugation
> > comes in fact from the collapsing of four different verbs!).
>
> Ben, òc! Grasias!
>
OK, I'll do it then :) .

>
> Yes please! I want more! <Dan the masochist jumps up and down in a
> hysteric
> overload of Romance languages>
>
:))) .

> Dan, who has been speaking French all day and is thoroughly sick of it.
>
How come you've been speaking French all day?