Re: Non-linear full-2d writing (again)

On 1/28/06, tomhchappell <tomhchappell@...> wrote:
> --- In conlang@yahoogroups.com, Sai Emrys <sai@S...> wrote:
> >[snip]
> >Two good tests are branching factor and recursivity.  If it can't to
> >both to arbitrary degrees, it's not what I'm talking about.
>
> Would flow-charts and logic-tables, then, be among examples of fully-
> two-dimensional non-linear writing systems?  If not both flow-charts
> and logic-tables, then, one or the other?
Flow-charts, yes. Logic tables, not the sort that I'm thinking of
(give an example?).

> (Note: If there is a requirement that lines do not cross, a two-
> dimensional flowchart does have some restrictions on branching and
> recursion (they can be unrestricted locally, but there are some
> global restrictions on interactions). [...]
That would be an aesthetic issue more than a definitional one. And
there are ways to allow crossing and still be understandable - e.g.
different colors, some sort of crossing-over glyph (e.g. the little
bump for circuitry blueprints), etc.

> How about Mozart's "Musical Dice Game"* (Musikalisches Würfelspiel),
Nope, for the same reason as the CYOA books.

> a 16-measure minuet in which 14 of the 16 measures can be "filled in"
> in any of 11 different ways, all of which "sound good (musical)"
> regardless of what other choices have been made?  It's true that it
> can't be "pronounced" (played) more than one way _at_ _a_ _time_; but
> didn't Mozart intend it to be _read_ all-ways-at-once?  Because there
> are, obviously, about 1,518,999,334,332,960 (1.518999 * 10^15) ways
> to _listen_ to it; even if everybody in the world listened to a
> disjoint set of one-hundred-thousand of them, that would cover only
> about two-thirds of them.
Again - yes, it is branching - but no particular playing of it can
realize both AA and BA and BB and etc at the same time. (As far as the
listener [perceiver] is concerned...)

And no, it's not intended to be *read* all-ways-at-once. Have you ever
tried to do that? It'll be thoroughly confusing and quite unplayable.
It's intended to be read some *particular* way at once.

Neat example though. :-)



On 1/28/06, Jefferson Wilson <jeffwilson63@...> wrote:
> Sai Emrys wrote:
> > On 1/25/06, Yahya Abdal-Aziz <yahya@...> wrote:
> >
> >>1.  Thanks for trying to explain your notion of "non-linear", and how it
> >>differs from simply "not presented along a straight line".  If I might
> >>summarise, I think your meaning of "non-linear" is what I would call
> >>"non-sequential".  So we're really talking about basic internal structure
> >>here, rather than (primarily) about representation.
> >
> > Two good tests are branching factor and recursivity. If it can't to
> > both to arbitrary degrees, it's not what I'm talking about.
>
> What do you mean by "arbitrary degree?"  If all symbols are the
> same size you're more-or-less restricted to six branches from a
> single symbol.
Only if they're also all square AND not allowed to overlap (or 'fill'
a square space, like all 'ideographic' languages I know do - e.g.
Japanese / Chinese kanji/hanzi always "take up" one square of space,
no matter what they do within it).

If you have different shape of their 'personal space' - e.g. hexagonal
(viz. maps used for wargames) - or if they have allowance for some
sort of fusional morphology, then I see no reason why it cannot in
fact be literally to any arbitrary degree of branching / recursion.

 - Sai

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