Re: NATLANG: Irish greeting

Scríobh Séan Mac an Gobhainn:

 > Stephen Mulraney scripsit:
 >
 >
 >>OTOH, there is a bit of a twist: 'Ó' has a genitive form 'Ui', so that
 >>you'd say "O'Connell" as "Ó Connall" (have I spelt that right? I'm not
 >>sure - having a head cold always makes me rather dyslexic (!)), and
 >>"O'Connell's dog" as "madra Ui Chonnaill". So perhaps they have different
 >>sources.
 >
 >
 > Perhaps.  In Ulster, the Ui Niaill was the whole clan (double clan,
 > actually: the Northern and the Southern); the O'Neill family was only
 > a small part, though the most socially prominent part, of this clan.

This strikes me as odd. The name in English is "O'Neill", while in
Irish it's "Ó Niall". The form "Ui Niaill" (with the change "Ó" to
"Ui" and the slenderisation of "Niall" to "Niaill") is the genitive
of the Irish name, presumeably a shortened form of "Clann Ui Niaill"
(AFAIK noun apposition can't be used here: the genitive is the only way
to say "the O'Neill Clan"). In any case, "Ui", since it so commonly
occurs in the genitive of 'Ó' names, couldn't really be anything else
in a family name. Perhaps the usage relates to a misunderstanding on
the part of Sassnach commentators :), or what seems more likely to me,
that "Ui Niaill" is short for a specific way to referring to the whole
lots of them folk (using the genitive, as is decent and natural in any
self-respecting IE language :).

s.
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Stephen Mulraney... ataltane at ataltane.net... ataltane.net

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