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Re: Grammar-holes: secondary predication

From:Roger Mills <rfmilly@...>
Date:Tuesday, June 5, 2007, 20:35
Taliesin wrote:
> Secondary predication is a phenomenon related to two of the > suggestions given in the thread "Difficult clauses": > > "We spent all night talking about I can't remember what." > "She bought I lost count how many kinds of cheese."
One could get close to these in Kash, but only colloquially: mikocañ ondre yuno liri ta pole manimbur we-discuss night entire about not can I-remember Note that a single vowel changes the meaning entirely: mikocañ ondre yuno lire ta pole manimbur 'we talked all night about (the fact that) I can't remember' (about my inability to remember) yatraka naya-naya yemo re ta pole mapinal she-buy kind-kind fruit REL not can I-count (No cheese on Cindu!) More "correct" might be yatraka....yemo mo ta pole mapinal '...but I couldn't count (them)'
> > Here's some examples: > > "They eat fish raw" = they eat fish, the fish being raw as they eat it > "They eat fish naked" = they eat fish, they are naked while doing so > > The above are depictive secondary predications, the first on the > object and the second on the subject. It might be possible to > interpret them the other way around of course but in this > example the semantics trump the syntax.
Yes, that is the problem, even in Kash; in fact I think they make a distinction between _raw_ (need not be cooked) and _uncooked_ (ought to be cooked. Thus some Cindu ethnic group(s) might enjoy numu toluka (raw fish, sushi), whereas sailors bobbing around in a life-raft might have to subsist on numu tranami (uncooked). As for 'naked', we don't have a specific word (so far); it's not an unnatural state for Kash. One is simply inga elimbeyi "without clothes" or maybe tralimbe alhtough that's more 'un-worn=not 2d hand'
> > There's a third type of secondary predication, the resultative: > > "Jane cooked the chicken hot" can mean:
This is peculiar English no matter how you interpret it, IMHO...... Can you create a better example?
> English can use other things than adjectives as the second > predicate though: > > "Jane cooked the chicken in a dreadful state"
Or maybe: "Jane cooked the chicken in a state of shock" I'm sure 99% of us would say that Jane was in a state of shock, not the chicken. Semantics again. I think Kash would have to split this up into: Jane was in a s.o.s. AND/WHEN she cooked the chicken.
> AFMCL, it should be possible to do resultatives with serial verb
constructions but as for depictives? Hmm.. Kash has serial verbs, but I think they require a closer relationship between the members, so that "yafasan yanami popo" she-hot she-cook popo would sound a little odd. But yahuluñ yanami popo 'she-fast/quick she cook...' is fine. We can also have: anala senda iyama inopra ratu child-pl PROG they-run they-cross street The children were running across they street (I.e. they were crossing the street running)-- a compound action as it were. Whereas "The children were running (and they were) across the street-- an action at a location-- would simply be different: anala senda iyama ri andoprani ratu LOC other-side-of street The simple "he painted the house red" has two possibilities I think: yarunguni çisu punani he-CAUS-color red house-the OR maybe just yarucisu punani he-CAUS-red house-the runguni+COLOR has to be idiomatic for 'to paint COLOR', since-- yarunguni punani çisu would mean 'he painted the red house'
> Is this a hole in your grammars also?
Not really, but thanks for making me think about it :-)