Re: "He opened the door and he (same referent) left the room"

----- Original Message -----
From: "Trebor Jung" <treborjung@...>

> Doug wrote: "In some languages, when clauses are combined, one of the
verbs
> is marked for "same subject" or "different subject," thereby clarifying
> whether the same referent is meant."
Teonaht does this with etsa/ouar, "same," "other," only when the pair
involve two humans of the same gender.  Not a problem if a male/female or
human/animal:

Tebnar uo Teky euil verinyn eldwa euan.  Etsa [Tebnar] elo htindel uo ouar
[Teky] tantai.
"Tebnar and Teky to the park PAST-they go.  Same PAST-he sing and other
dance."
(you can leave out the tense information for the second clause if there is
simultaneity)

But compare [and here we are back with the man and the dog]:  Le zef uolo
kohsa euil verinyn eldwa euan.  Elo htindel uo elai o:lo:.  "the man and his
dog to the park did they go.  He sang and it howled."


> Yes; this is a paper I found on Creek's SR system: <
>
http://www.google.ca/search?q=cache:JYEOt1P3_-4J:faculty.wm.edu/jbmart/papers/cr_switch_reference.pdf+switch+reference&hl=en>.
>
> Here's a list of SR examples I made up (#a=simultaneous, #b=sequential).
>
> 1a. He sang and danced.
> 1b. He sang and then danced.
Curious.  We've talked about this structure before with "then," IIRC, but
mostly in ergative languages.

Elo htindel uo elo ban tantai.  "DID-he sing and did-he then dance."  Or:
Elo htindel ban tanta-elo.  "He sang, then danced-he" (slightly
subordinate).

Or what about simultaneity?  He sang while he danced.  He sang while she
danced?  He sang while he (another) danced?

Elo htindel revbom tantai.  "He sang dancing."
Elo htindel ran ely tantai.  "He sang while she danced." [ran="at the same
time, while"]
Etsa htindel ran ouar tantai.  "He (1) sang while he(2) danced.

And then what about:  "When he sings, the other will dance."  "If he sings,
the other dances."

> 2a. He1 sang and he2 danced.
> 2b. He1 sang and then he2 danced.
>
> 3a. He1 said that he1 sang and he1 danced.
> 3b. He1 said that he1 sang and then he1 danced.
Plot thickens:

3a:  Elo ebra thindel elo uo tantai.  "Did-he say sing past-he and dance."
[it's implied that it's at the same time; more explicitly: Elo ebra htindel
elo revbom tantai--"he said that he sang dancing"; Elo ebra htindel elletsa
ran tantai.  "He said that he sang while [past-same] dance."]

3b:  Elo ebra htindel elo uo ban tantai.  "Did he say sing-past-he and
then-dance."

> 4a. He1 said that he1 sang and he2 danced.
> 4b. He1 said that he1 sang and then he2 danced.
4a.  Elo ebra htindeuel-etsa uo tantai-ouar.
4b.  Elo ebra htindeuel-etsa uo ban tantai-ouar.

> 5a. He1 said that he2 sang and he1 danced.
> 5b. He1 said that he2 sang and then he1 danced.
>
> 6a. He1 said that he2 sang and he3 danced.
> 6b. He1 said that he2 sang and then he3 danced.
>
> Wow, things can get pretty complicated :P
Yeah.  And tiring!  Hungry spouse downstairs.  Me all weary footwise.  I
don't think Teonaht can handle he3; it will require resorting back to names.

How would natlangs handle sentences like 6b?

Don't know.  How would French do it?  I don't trust my handle on French at
this level.

> Does anyone have any real natlang examples for a sentence like 6b for
agglutinative languages like Quechua?

Not me.

> Any sentences I should add to my list of examples above to test my
languages
> on?
Probably the simultaneity (he sang while he danced, he sang while the other
danced) and the conditional, hypothetical:  "he would sing if the other
would dance"  "if he sings I would dance," "If I sing then I have to dance,
too."  "THEN" has a different meaning here.  In Teonaht "if...then" is
ty...ta,  TA meaning "with the result that," among other things.  Ty htindel
esry, ta reval tyr tantai.  "If I will sing, then my also dancing."
Blessedly, there's no subjunctive in Teonaht.  Only a vague modal--wem--that
puts the verb in the hypothetical:  ty htindel wemry, ta reval tyr tantai.

How about equative, comparative, superlative, and alterative constructions?
In Teonaht there is an alterative: it is otherly red, it is red in a
different way (rather than the old "as red as," "redder than," "most red."

Sally