Re: Talarian/Yllurian was Re: Thagojian and Wenetaic (was: Order of letters)
| From: | Padraic Brown <elemtilas@...> |
|---|
| Date: | Saturday, September 28, 2002, 20:16 |
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--- Jan van Steenbergen <ijzeren_jan@...>
wrote:
> Thanks! I would never have assume that both
> languages are so closely related
> anyway. Especially Talarian looks very ancient. I
> don't know how you did it,
> but it reminds of both Hittite, Sanskrit and
> Tocharian.
Here, I found the list, taken from "An Intro. to the
I-E Languages" (Baldi):
TOCH-A HITITE TALARIAN
------ ------ --------
Gender-M/F/N Anim/Inanim Anim/Inanim[*]
Num-S/D/Pl/Par/Dist S/D/P[1] S/D/P[1]
Case-N/G/Ob/I/Perl/ N/G/D/Ac/D/L/Ab/I
N/G/D/Ac/D/L/A/I
All/Ab/L/Caus
full decl 8s/4pl 8s/4d/4pl
Stems-Cons/Vowel Vowel/H/R-N Vowel/R-N[2]
Adj-nom. decl. nom. decl. no adj.
Pron- full/red(encl) full/red(encl)
Mood-Conj/Opt/Imper Indic/imper Ind/Subj/Imper
Tense-Pres/Impf/Past Pres-Fut/past Pres-fut/past
Conj- -mi/-hi act/stat[3]
Voice-act/M-P act/M-P act/M-P[3]
Postposing Postposing Postposing
[*] Inanimate nouns are by far more numerous; but in
recent centuries, animate nouns are on the rise.
[1] Number distinction somewhat blurred.
[2] The -r/-n declension (watar, wetanuça) contains
the vast majority or words and usually corresponds to
the inanimate gender.
[3] I need a better word for "active", as it currently
describes both a high level verb category (in
apposition with Stative verbs) and a lower level voice
indicator (active v. middle).
Talarian verbs are actually divided three ways: the
Statives form one "conjugation"; while the Actives are
classed according to Punctual and Durative forms. Stem
forms, endings and other such paraphernalia vary
somewhat from one sort to the other:
Root Punctual Duraltive Stative
wárk- wárkti wárkati wórka
(do) (he is working) (he works at) (it
functions)
You can see it lines up a little more with Hittite. I
think, as far as its conhistory goes, Talarian and its
immediate relatives must be closer to Anatolian than
to I-E proper. At least the conhistory of languages is
a little clearer *there*: the I-E and Semitic
explosions are due to the flooding of their ancestral
homeland (v. "Noah's Flood"). The Aryans spread East
and West mostly; the Semites into the South.
> My own Hattic is also inspired mainly by Tocharian.
You'll have to show us some!
> > Let's see, that would _actually_ be:
> > "hawehhti/hawehhati-mat Hahanas Qawwewanatias-ca
> papan-ta-he?
> > = is cooking-INTERROG John Cowan-of-the
> potatoballs-the-and?"
>
> Oh dear! How is this pronounced?
Talarian doesn't import words in a very friendly
fashion. Hahanas (<Ioannes) is something like:
/'hahanas/.
> Especially the
> "Hananas Qawwewanatias-ca"
/'Qaw w@ wa 'na tjaS ka/
The vowel system is:
i u:
E @ c
a
(c = OUght, not sure if the symbol's right)
IE a:, e:, o: > a:
a, e > a
o, u > c
@ > E
i: > i:
i > i
It's curious, though, that even though there are
native words starting with [k], any words borrowed
from foreign languages that start with [k] tend to end
up with [Q].
> By the way, are those hyphens part of the official
> spelling of the language, or
> are they meant to distinguish morphemes?
They only help me (and thee) distinguish affixes,
rather than morphemes, in the Romanisation. In real
spelling, all the letters and words would be crammed
together; in one of the syllabaries, those signs would
be crammed together as well.
> :)))
> What harmful could be inside? A cockroach? A spider?
> A poinonous mushroom?
Well, at the Metranes (Winter festival marking
Mithras's birth), the visiting gastronome can immerse
himself in the wonderful world of Unusual and Rarely
Seen Animal Parts. Usually, Teleranian fare is fairly
safe, being proper meats of various sorts (esp. beef,
horse, goat and sheep); but at midwinter, all sorts of
Puddings and Stews begin to appear with hearts and
tongues; fried eyeballs stuffed with minced lung; and
other usually disgusting things. It should be noted,
though, that several enterprising Telerani have been
able to make a bundle by opening ethnic popinas in
Pontian and Pretorian cities, cos the Romans seem to
go gaga over such things.
> Just wondering. Are there objective criteria for
> assigning values?
I'm not aware of one, and the original message
concerning the Legratec system didn't mention such
criteria.
> > ==Ill Bethisad==
> > Kerno L4G5T4C5
> > 5 or 6 various L0G1T1C4
>
> Does this mean that Kerno has sister languages?
Apart from the Cumbrian-Brithenig-Paesan spectrum,
which are certainly related, there are other more
closely related dialects. Notable are Kerno lor
Vretten (Breozenecq), Belgeo (dead), Durro (moribund),
Domano (dead), and the Sabrinian dialects (all long
dead). There's also Middle and Old Kerno, of which I
only some of the sound and morphology changes; there's
Legal Latin, which is a kind of insular Vulgar Latin
that's used in the law courts.
> Or do you mean that they just play around in the
> same scenario?
They do that as well.
> > ==The World==
> > Aryan* (PIE!) L4G4T3C2
> > Talarian L3G4T3C4
> > Yllurian L1G1T1C1
> > Anglian L3G4T4C4 (I don't have anything on this
> > one
> > now, and it was mangled Middle English, anyway.)
> > Mentolatian L0G0T0C0 (V. distantly related to
> > Aryan.)
> > Iconian (Old and New) L0G0T0C0 (Somewhat Helenic;
> > the new is Celtic over a Helenic substrate.)
>
> Just curious: "logotocos" (TM) are conlangs without
> words, text, concultures,
> etc. So what's left? Just the concept?
Yep. A lot of languages in the World are just such
items. Many of mine have very minimal texts or lexicon
or culture (like Yllemese).
> > Ladhinat L0G0T1C1 (Latin with some Carthaginian
> and
> > Other influence.)
> > Lucaria L2G2T2C1 (Probably as close as to a creole
> as
> > I've ever done.)
> > Pontian L1G3T1C2 (A major Roman dialect in the
> East.)
> > Pretorian L1G3T1C2 (A classical sort of language,
> one
> > of literature, etc.)
> > a dozen various Celtic, Italic L0G0T0C1
>
> Yeah, I have seen a Lucarian text. Quite nice, I
> admit. Eager to see some Pontian and Pretorian.
The following is Pretorian, which along with Pontian
are the two principal dialects of the Romans in the
East.
[If you look closely, you can see some of the
influence this language had on early forms of Kerno.]
De Cornouz Faxiune en y Pars Magnacalligaes.
En y Pars Magnacalligaes, sons pays qua stad apud
quallquerre cuintemillus passus aom orientem ex
Praetoriad, y-toccan on callamellibus quoi clama
banturi Kornux (Kornug-); og y-sun unan instrumentum
musiceis magis rarumque de strepitu vibundoque. Co
frequenzaco, y-facenti os cornus dis arbreole au dis
ivorie au dis aeise; sontis rectai, ai toubai, og co
hoctebus reguloribus ventos. Oi regulares distanti
des ibus cadautribus apud passum pollicos sui riji, au
li sui domnu, quoad yst circim naustro pulguri,
passure.
Viantiguare, cascunno regulor anterioremente praesta
banti, set naunce, moultii factoris collocanti os
septem oz regulorez on o anteriore, og unom per
pulgurem on o dorsu. Ii cornus tenenti tonos novem,
og usanturi dansandoque jentis ballandoque in is
pagannis apud festallian.
Y-toccan ii Kornulpeyrlez, au lis ommens quoi os
toccan, y-componenti dansas raras quai vagabundand
inter tempus rapidunque og tempus lenteque. Sa jent
Magnacalliga toccad on tambouribusque flautibusque
colibus cornubusco, faxeundii strepitu barbarum, en
y-tenenti magim amore intervallibus de iv og ix co
dronibusco de xviiii in basso.
De Pibouz Faxiune en Pars Ycounicaux.
En y Pars Ycounicaux, yam on peobbív y-touccan,
enviam aux Gaulliaux. A res ex dessimilaritad entroun
hos peuploun, ys out ii Gaulliii hen tria drouna on
souez piboun, whereas ll'Yconicounii hen solu unu
drone on souez pibounn. Marim, clamantor ex nominibus
dezimilaribus, sontis: magnim ex partim en a Pars
Galliaz, peovellenas au peovuras, whereas en a Pars
Ycounicaux, hurunclammores clamantore. Hogge ys res
permensamixanda, on causad out u nom ys ex douz
Avaunglyainnez, lu quod cernu nos clamamos, hurnu
y-claman. En Pars Ylluriaux, raramente y-toccan ibus
pibibus, sed ex has personas quas piboun hen, apud
vezes hurnupip y- claman. Ys hac via magnim ex partim
quod paucii Gaulliii en a Pars Ylluriod y-viven.
En quáupleced Pars auen od Ympeuriod auen as Pars
Galliaux, auen as Pars Auvaungliaux, ii pibii sun en
via simile faxii. A bulcca ex oc coriod avaunimaulid
fiitor, un oz henda for o chantouri, un oz henda for a
bouccatrix, og un, duo, au tris ossez henda for ibus
dronibus. A sacca in via bottellaz seccator. Ad hoc
sun addessii ii pibii, gleuteco fixatii og consutii en
situd. Co frequenzaco, a sacca decoratur co pladeco
au altraco materieco og apud molton pibon, sun multu
auraux au arjentez og jemstanaz. A drouna, cuando sun
tria, sun alligata stringabusco, apud vexes stringa
auraux apud vexes stringa decorata. Anclii auros au
oses au ivorias apud vezes enfortrezan o
chauvaunturem.
O pibaux tonos ys regulatos ex u Bardez Senatud out
toutii pibii hen o metipsimo tono. Douz tribus
dronibus, cuando tria sun, u granestimu hat o
metipsimo tono quo hat o chauntur; cascuna altraux
drounez han o tono quinto, ambo drone sonte ex
metipsimu strepitud. Quando ys solu unu drone, semper
ha o pibos tono.
Moultai dansai sun ballattai ex pibibus musiche,
rinchai, xigus, riiles, og gladisaltaciunes sun,
magnim ex partim, undiquem dansatai ex og villanibus
og cavaullaribus apud festalian. Gladisaltaciunnes
sun dansatai marim ex clannez au capitannibus au
chevetannibus. Co frequenzaco poemai musicalles sun
cantatai apud dansandi og saltandi accompaniare, sed
raramente altri instrumentii toccantur, exceptantim
tambouez au altro pib.
The following is a law in Legal Pontian:
O Magisteriod Consultod.
Wagons ú reidas ú carrigarri ú cualdeuell veiclús de
moys de pilóz triu passu copellexenter de non u forud
eçeundi ap cualdeuell vias, viavas axivas cualeslegit
entibus. Uencuatru falús multés eu ferribuet quoios
wagú ú reida ú carriga ú cualdeuell veiclús de moys de
pilóz triu passu uiziter de ap u forud eçiren ap
cualdeuell vias cualsenlegit. U foru ne intrandi ne
eçeundi ap wagons ú reidavas ú carrigavas ú cualdeuell
veiclús de moys de pilóz triu passu e primluçéd a
vesprons sun. Douencuatrum falús multés eu ferribuet
quoios wagú ó reida ú carriga ú cualdeuell veiclús de
moys de pilóz triu passu legirupús sedet.
And finally, the Romishcallian, heavily influenced by
Old Irish:
o Scél los Kevini Noibi in Morit.
Cid ist dicitur ar chuit los Kevini Noibi in morit?
Ní annso dicitandom. In illis diebus, Kevinus noibos
in morit comhllis sevis breíthribh navigasset in lis
sevis corwgibh becc. Trem multas dies navigavon,
cuant a insi vissa, iierunt ad ripam. O Kevinus
noibos la sevam aram fixasset ocus missam dhixit, cum
hymnibh cantatibh per les sevos breíthir. Trem dies
iii remanuon for lam insim, om Dhio n-adorantes ocus
missas cantantes, cuant rapide la inis movesset.
Commoti sunt magno cum terrore, ocus o cenn ocus
cethair rema ex wetanaibh venuon. Biit la inis
nathar! Animal esom inspectasset ocus incepet esom
ithes, set o noibos hymnos rocecanet ocus o nathar
mollificasset. O nathar incepet dormís, ocus o noibos
ocus les seves breíthir in les seves corwges
rofestincua, abnavigantes ta rapide cua photest.
Don't even ask for translations, cos I haven't even
looked at these languages in about 6 years.
> > ==Other==
> > Example Language iii L5G5T1C- (100% English
> grammar;
> > 100% Latin words)
> > Dream Language L1G2T0C- (Welsh/Gaelic sort of mix)
>
> Well, if you have numbers for all those languages,
> spill them!
Well, most of them are along the lines of L1G2T1C1.
> Besides, Hattic has an elaborated system for
> building new words on the basis of
> existing (Hattic) ones. Just create a verb and a
> preposition, and you have got
> at least five six new words.
Indeed. Making a root in Talarian will instantly yield
either a verb or a noun/adjective; application of a
couple simple derivational stems will yield the
missing POS; composition with a relevant root already
existing will yield semantically interesting
compounds.
> But when I say Hattic
> has 1,300 words, I don't
> include the virtual vocabulary.
Indeed. Most recent count for Kerno is about 2200
known words that I have written down. I have a nother
100 or so that are scattered amongst various bits of
paper. And there's probably 10.000 or more in the
"virtual" category! :)
> Jan
Padraic.
=====
raps il tenós mathin la ngouerma;
mays comez le nces il luchets le secund.
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