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Re: Talarian/Yllurian was Re: Thagojian and Wenetaic (was: Order of letters)

From:Padraic Brown <elemtilas@...>
Date:Saturday, September 28, 2002, 20:16
--- Jan van Steenbergen <ijzeren_jan@...>

> Thanks! I would never have assume that both > languages are so closely related > anyway. Especially Talarian looks very ancient. I > don't know how you did it, > but it reminds of both Hittite, Sanskrit and > Tocharian.
Here, I found the list, taken from "An Intro. to the I-E Languages" (Baldi): TOCH-A HITITE TALARIAN ------ ------ -------- Gender-M/F/N Anim/Inanim Anim/Inanim[*] Num-S/D/Pl/Par/Dist S/D/P[1] S/D/P[1] Case-N/G/Ob/I/Perl/ N/G/D/Ac/D/L/Ab/I N/G/D/Ac/D/L/A/I All/Ab/L/Caus full decl 8s/4pl 8s/4d/4pl Stems-Cons/Vowel Vowel/H/R-N Vowel/R-N[2] Adj-nom. decl. nom. decl. no adj. Pron- full/red(encl) full/red(encl) Mood-Conj/Opt/Imper Indic/imper Ind/Subj/Imper Tense-Pres/Impf/Past Pres-Fut/past Pres-fut/past Conj- -mi/-hi act/stat[3] Voice-act/M-P act/M-P act/M-P[3] Postposing Postposing Postposing [*] Inanimate nouns are by far more numerous; but in recent centuries, animate nouns are on the rise. [1] Number distinction somewhat blurred. [2] The -r/-n declension (watar, wetanuça) contains the vast majority or words and usually corresponds to the inanimate gender. [3] I need a better word for "active", as it currently describes both a high level verb category (in apposition with Stative verbs) and a lower level voice indicator (active v. middle). Talarian verbs are actually divided three ways: the Statives form one "conjugation"; while the Actives are classed according to Punctual and Durative forms. Stem forms, endings and other such paraphernalia vary somewhat from one sort to the other: Root Punctual Duraltive Stative wárk- wárkti wárkati wórka (do) (he is working) (he works at) (it functions) You can see it lines up a little more with Hittite. I think, as far as its conhistory goes, Talarian and its immediate relatives must be closer to Anatolian than to I-E proper. At least the conhistory of languages is a little clearer *there*: the I-E and Semitic explosions are due to the flooding of their ancestral homeland (v. "Noah's Flood"). The Aryans spread East and West mostly; the Semites into the South.
> My own Hattic is also inspired mainly by Tocharian.
You'll have to show us some!
> > Let's see, that would _actually_ be: > > "hawehhti/hawehhati-mat Hahanas Qawwewanatias-ca > papan-ta-he? > > = is cooking-INTERROG John Cowan-of-the > potatoballs-the-and?" > > Oh dear! How is this pronounced?
Talarian doesn't import words in a very friendly fashion. Hahanas (<Ioannes) is something like: /'hahanas/.
> Especially the > "Hananas Qawwewanatias-ca"
/'Qaw w@ wa 'na tjaS ka/ The vowel system is: i u: E @ c a (c = OUght, not sure if the symbol's right) IE a:, e:, o: > a: a, e > a o, u > c @ > E i: > i: i > i It's curious, though, that even though there are native words starting with [k], any words borrowed from foreign languages that start with [k] tend to end up with [Q].
> By the way, are those hyphens part of the official > spelling of the language, or > are they meant to distinguish morphemes?
They only help me (and thee) distinguish affixes, rather than morphemes, in the Romanisation. In real spelling, all the letters and words would be crammed together; in one of the syllabaries, those signs would be crammed together as well.
> :))) > What harmful could be inside? A cockroach? A spider? > A poinonous mushroom?
Well, at the Metranes (Winter festival marking Mithras's birth), the visiting gastronome can immerse himself in the wonderful world of Unusual and Rarely Seen Animal Parts. Usually, Teleranian fare is fairly safe, being proper meats of various sorts (esp. beef, horse, goat and sheep); but at midwinter, all sorts of Puddings and Stews begin to appear with hearts and tongues; fried eyeballs stuffed with minced lung; and other usually disgusting things. It should be noted, though, that several enterprising Telerani have been able to make a bundle by opening ethnic popinas in Pontian and Pretorian cities, cos the Romans seem to go gaga over such things.
> Just wondering. Are there objective criteria for > assigning values?
I'm not aware of one, and the original message concerning the Legratec system didn't mention such criteria.
> > ==Ill Bethisad== > > Kerno L4G5T4C5 > > 5 or 6 various L0G1T1C4 > > Does this mean that Kerno has sister languages?
Apart from the Cumbrian-Brithenig-Paesan spectrum, which are certainly related, there are other more closely related dialects. Notable are Kerno lor Vretten (Breozenecq), Belgeo (dead), Durro (moribund), Domano (dead), and the Sabrinian dialects (all long dead). There's also Middle and Old Kerno, of which I only some of the sound and morphology changes; there's Legal Latin, which is a kind of insular Vulgar Latin that's used in the law courts.
> Or do you mean that they just play around in the > same scenario?
They do that as well.
> > ==The World== > > Aryan* (PIE!) L4G4T3C2 > > Talarian L3G4T3C4 > > Yllurian L1G1T1C1 > > Anglian L3G4T4C4 (I don't have anything on this > > one > > now, and it was mangled Middle English, anyway.) > > Mentolatian L0G0T0C0 (V. distantly related to > > Aryan.) > > Iconian (Old and New) L0G0T0C0 (Somewhat Helenic; > > the new is Celtic over a Helenic substrate.) > > Just curious: "logotocos" (TM) are conlangs without > words, text, concultures, > etc. So what's left? Just the concept?
Yep. A lot of languages in the World are just such items. Many of mine have very minimal texts or lexicon or culture (like Yllemese).
> > Ladhinat L0G0T1C1 (Latin with some Carthaginian > and > > Other influence.) > > Lucaria L2G2T2C1 (Probably as close as to a creole > as > > I've ever done.) > > Pontian L1G3T1C2 (A major Roman dialect in the > East.) > > Pretorian L1G3T1C2 (A classical sort of language, > one > > of literature, etc.) > > a dozen various Celtic, Italic L0G0T0C1 > > Yeah, I have seen a Lucarian text. Quite nice, I > admit. Eager to see some Pontian and Pretorian.
The following is Pretorian, which along with Pontian are the two principal dialects of the Romans in the East. [If you look closely, you can see some of the influence this language had on early forms of Kerno.] De Cornouz Faxiune en y Pars Magnacalligaes. En y Pars Magnacalligaes, sons pays qua stad apud quallquerre cuintemillus passus aom orientem ex Praetoriad, y-toccan on callamellibus quoi clama banturi Kornux (Kornug-); og y-sun unan instrumentum musiceis magis rarumque de strepitu vibundoque. Co frequenzaco, y-facenti os cornus dis arbreole au dis ivorie au dis aeise; sontis rectai, ai toubai, og co hoctebus reguloribus ventos. Oi regulares distanti des ibus cadautribus apud passum pollicos sui riji, au li sui domnu, quoad yst circim naustro pulguri, passure. Viantiguare, cascunno regulor anterioremente praesta banti, set naunce, moultii factoris collocanti os septem oz regulorez on o anteriore, og unom per pulgurem on o dorsu. Ii cornus tenenti tonos novem, og usanturi dansandoque jentis ballandoque in is pagannis apud festallian. Y-toccan ii Kornulpeyrlez, au lis ommens quoi os toccan, y-componenti dansas raras quai vagabundand inter tempus rapidunque og tempus lenteque. Sa jent Magnacalliga toccad on tambouribusque flautibusque colibus cornubusco, faxeundii strepitu barbarum, en y-tenenti magim amore intervallibus de iv og ix co dronibusco de xviiii in basso. De Pibouz Faxiune en Pars Ycounicaux. En y Pars Ycounicaux, yam on peobbív y-touccan, enviam aux Gaulliaux. A res ex dessimilaritad entroun hos peuploun, ys out ii Gaulliii hen tria drouna on souez piboun, whereas ll'Yconicounii hen solu unu drone on souez pibounn. Marim, clamantor ex nominibus dezimilaribus, sontis: magnim ex partim en a Pars Galliaz, peovellenas au peovuras, whereas en a Pars Ycounicaux, hurunclammores clamantore. Hogge ys res permensamixanda, on causad out u nom ys ex douz Avaunglyainnez, lu quod cernu nos clamamos, hurnu y-claman. En Pars Ylluriaux, raramente y-toccan ibus pibibus, sed ex has personas quas piboun hen, apud vezes hurnupip y- claman. Ys hac via magnim ex partim quod paucii Gaulliii en a Pars Ylluriod y-viven. En quáupleced Pars auen od Ympeuriod auen as Pars Galliaux, auen as Pars Auvaungliaux, ii pibii sun en via simile faxii. A bulcca ex oc coriod avaunimaulid fiitor, un oz henda for o chantouri, un oz henda for a bouccatrix, og un, duo, au tris ossez henda for ibus dronibus. A sacca in via bottellaz seccator. Ad hoc sun addessii ii pibii, gleuteco fixatii og consutii en situd. Co frequenzaco, a sacca decoratur co pladeco au altraco materieco og apud molton pibon, sun multu auraux au arjentez og jemstanaz. A drouna, cuando sun tria, sun alligata stringabusco, apud vexes stringa auraux apud vexes stringa decorata. Anclii auros au oses au ivorias apud vezes enfortrezan o chauvaunturem. O pibaux tonos ys regulatos ex u Bardez Senatud out toutii pibii hen o metipsimo tono. Douz tribus dronibus, cuando tria sun, u granestimu hat o metipsimo tono quo hat o chauntur; cascuna altraux drounez han o tono quinto, ambo drone sonte ex metipsimu strepitud. Quando ys solu unu drone, semper ha o pibos tono. Moultai dansai sun ballattai ex pibibus musiche, rinchai, xigus, riiles, og gladisaltaciunes sun, magnim ex partim, undiquem dansatai ex og villanibus og cavaullaribus apud festalian. Gladisaltaciunnes sun dansatai marim ex clannez au capitannibus au chevetannibus. Co frequenzaco poemai musicalles sun cantatai apud dansandi og saltandi accompaniare, sed raramente altri instrumentii toccantur, exceptantim tambouez au altro pib. The following is a law in Legal Pontian: O Magisteriod Consultod. Wagons ú reidas ú carrigarri ú cualdeuell veiclús de moys de pilóz triu passu copellexenter de non u forud eçeundi ap cualdeuell vias, viavas axivas cualeslegit entibus. Uencuatru falús multés eu ferribuet quoios wagú ú reida ú carriga ú cualdeuell veiclús de moys de pilóz triu passu uiziter de ap u forud eçiren ap cualdeuell vias cualsenlegit. U foru ne intrandi ne eçeundi ap wagons ú reidavas ú carrigavas ú cualdeuell veiclús de moys de pilóz triu passu e primluçéd a vesprons sun. Douencuatrum falús multés eu ferribuet quoios wagú ó reida ú carriga ú cualdeuell veiclús de moys de pilóz triu passu legirupús sedet. And finally, the Romishcallian, heavily influenced by Old Irish: o Scél los Kevini Noibi in Morit. Cid ist dicitur ar chuit los Kevini Noibi in morit? Ní annso dicitandom. In illis diebus, Kevinus noibos in morit comhllis sevis breíthribh navigasset in lis sevis corwgibh becc. Trem multas dies navigavon, cuant a insi vissa, iierunt ad ripam. O Kevinus noibos la sevam aram fixasset ocus missam dhixit, cum hymnibh cantatibh per les sevos breíthir. Trem dies iii remanuon for lam insim, om Dhio n-adorantes ocus missas cantantes, cuant rapide la inis movesset. Commoti sunt magno cum terrore, ocus o cenn ocus cethair rema ex wetanaibh venuon. Biit la inis nathar! Animal esom inspectasset ocus incepet esom ithes, set o noibos hymnos rocecanet ocus o nathar mollificasset. O nathar incepet dormís, ocus o noibos ocus les seves breíthir in les seves corwges rofestincua, abnavigantes ta rapide cua photest. Don't even ask for translations, cos I haven't even looked at these languages in about 6 years.
> > ==Other== > > Example Language iii L5G5T1C- (100% English > grammar; > > 100% Latin words) > > Dream Language L1G2T0C- (Welsh/Gaelic sort of mix) > > Well, if you have numbers for all those languages, > spill them!
Well, most of them are along the lines of L1G2T1C1.
> Besides, Hattic has an elaborated system for > building new words on the basis of > existing (Hattic) ones. Just create a verb and a > preposition, and you have got > at least five six new words.
Indeed. Making a root in Talarian will instantly yield either a verb or a noun/adjective; application of a couple simple derivational stems will yield the missing POS; composition with a relevant root already existing will yield semantically interesting compounds.
> But when I say Hattic > has 1,300 words, I don't > include the virtual vocabulary.
Indeed. Most recent count for Kerno is about 2200 known words that I have written down. I have a nother 100 or so that are scattered amongst various bits of paper. And there's probably 10.000 or more in the "virtual" category! :)
> Jan
Padraic. ===== raps il tenós mathin la ngouerma; mays comez le nces il luchets le secund. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo!