Re: Spanish dialects (was: Immediateness)

Carlos Eugenio Thompson Pinzon wrote:

>A joke I've hear said you can tell apart an _uruguayo_ because he will be
>saying he's NOT an Argentinan (even if not asked). :-)
It's quite probable.

>Even if I'm not familiariced with Rioplatence dialect, I could guess with
>some chances (not much) who is an Argentinan and who an Uruguayian, due to
>the tonal differences.
If the Argentinian is not from the Buenos Aires - Rosario area, probably
not. Anyway, to continue with this joke issue, you can always tell a
Rosarino apart from a Porteno -- ask him if he's a Porteno and you'll get a
murdering look if you're wrong.


>  Among them Puertorriquean /'pwel.to.ri'ke.No/
>(N for palatal nasal) is the most particular, mixing syllabe-final liquids
>from standard Spanish.  Venezuelian differences are more tonal.  All the
>others sound very simmilar to me, and some times vocabulary helps (if a
>Caribean is talking about a "guagua" I would guess is a Cuban talking
about
>a bus, with an Andean dialect woud be someone talking about a child).
And in Argentina, you'd probably be talking to a child about a *dog*.

I didn't know that Portorriquenos shifted [r] -> [l] -- IIRC this is called
'lambdacism'.
The liquids seem to change a lot in Spanish. In the north-west of Argentina
(Catamarca, La Rioja, etc.) a final-syllable [r] (alveolar flap) will
change to a retroflex or palatal approximate. (I haven't been there and
studied the exact phonology; I know of this mainly because our current
president, Carlos Menem, is from La Rioja, and he has a marked accent --
his first name pronounced this way is enough to identify him).


>Besides vocabulary, most differences between Spanish dialects are
>ponunciation of <y>/<ll>: /j/ and /L/ in castillian, /j/ and /Z/ in
>_paisa_, /S/ or /Z/ in Rioplatence and /j/ in all other dialects; and
><s>/<z> postalveolar /s/ and /T/ in Castillian, alveolar /s/ in Andalucian
>all (latin)American dialects; <j> and <rr>.  Syllabe-final consonants,
like
>aspiration of silabiants ([s] -> [h] shift) change ([r] <-> [l] in
>Puertorriquean) or droping. Tonal differences and prosody. And use of
>addressing.
About written <rr>, word-first <r> (in theory an alveolar trill): in
Argentina outside the Rioplatense area, it's mostly pronounced /Z/ (a bit
palatalized).

>Most (all?) American dialects use "ustedes"/"les" for second person
plural,
>and "vosotros"/"os" is only used in liturgy.  I guess those who learn
>Spanish as second language, were told "tu' " is the informal addressing
and
>"usted" the formal one.
And even in liturgy "vosotros"/"os" is losing its place -- modern
translation of the Bible and the liturgical books use "ustedes"/"les".

>Tradicional Bogota dialect is called _cachaco_, but after a great
population
>grow due to inmigration, this tradicional dialect is not very common
>nowadays.  Most of us, _cachacos_ or not, use a specially trilled /rr/
which
>gave us the nickname of _rolos_.
How is this /rr/ specially trilled?

>In my dialect, which is not _cachaco_ but it is still _bogotano_, "tu' "
is
>seldom use between men, but is very common for both formal and informal
>speech between man and woman or between women.  I still use "usted" for
>addressing an older woman, and had no problem using "tu' " with little
boys.

In Rioplatense, informal conversation usually uses "vos". Some older
(educated) people will use "usted" when talking to everyone, even in
informal terms. In the same way, the usual contraction of the conjunction
"con" ("with") and the second person accusative pronoun "ti" ("contigo")
has been abandoned; we use "con vos", no contraction. But surprisingly,
some people in formal conversation (particularly a television reporter
talking to someone else on the air) use expressions like "en diez minutos
estamos contigo" ("in ten minutes we are [will be] with you").

>And, of course, vocabulary is an important part of dialects.
>Some words I remember, for children and blonds (standard Spanish, meaning
>what we all can understand, at least pasivelly: nin~os and rubios)
>Child:
>Bogota: chino
>Other Colombia: pelado /pe'la.o/
>Peru, Chile and _pastuso_: guagua
Argentina: chico (lit. meaning "small"), and more colloquial _pibe_
(source?).
In rural areas, _china_ is a young girl -- I think this is Quechua
influence from afar.


>Blond:
>Colombia: mono
>Venezuela: catire
>Mexico: gu:ero /'gwe.ro/
Argentina: _payo_ /'pa.So/ is (rarely) used for people with rubicund
complexion and very fair blond hair.

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