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Re: Terminology

From:Raymond A. Brown <raybrown@...>
Date:Tuesday, November 24, 1998, 19:49
At 9:38 am +0100 23/11/98, Christophe Grandsire wrote:
>At 20:53 22/11/98 -0800, you wrote:
>>What I'm wondering is whether there's a name for this entire *type* of >>construction. >> > > In French, we call them "propositions subordonn=E9es compl=E9tives" >('completive subclauses'?) but I don't know if it's a linguistic term or >only a grammarian term.
=2E.. then at 9:45 am +0100 23/11/98, Christophe also wrote in reply to my: "It's a 'noun clause' (or 'nominal clause'). Here it is the direct object o= f 'thelo'. Such clauses can also be used as subject of a sentence, e.g....."
> > So I didn't have the right name. Yours is more logical, and more >'linguistic-like'. 'Completive' must be a grammarian term.
=2E.. and at 11:57 am +0000 24/11/98, Mathias M. Lassailly wrote: =2E...
>My French grammar calls them 'proposition subordonnie' and 'proposition >subordonnie infinitive'.
I guess it's not so much 'linguistic-like' versus grammarian, as partly different national traditions that, e.g. means that I would call sounds such as /p/, /t/, /k/, /b/, /d/, /g/ "plosives" while I suspect Christophe & Mathias are more likely to call them "occlusives". (If I've been reading a lot of phonological stuff in French, then "occlusive" is likely to come across into my English until "plosive" re-establishes itself :-) 'Subordinate' the clauses certainly are. Indeed, I'd call them 'subordinate noun clauses' in full. I guess from both Christophe & Mathias that French is here using "proposition" to mean what I know as a 'noun clause'. In English 'proposition' is now confined mostly to the realms of logic (and hookers). The third word in the French - 'completive' & 'infinitive' respectively are clearly adjectives defining their function. "Completive" is in my experience not a very common adj. in English & 'infinitival' is, I think, more likely as the adjective. But certainly the tradition I have been used to labels the function of noun clause according to their relation with sentence (or clause) they are subordinate to, thus, 'subject', 'object', 'governed by preposition' etc. [snip]
>>In Greek such clauses may even be preceeded by the definite article, as >>nouns are and as the infinitive often was in ancient Greek, and the clause >>may then be governed by a preposition, e.g. >> >>einai kourasmenos ap to min koimatai ['min' =3D mu eta nu] >>He is tired from not sleeping. >> > > Very interesting! A little bit like my Azak where noun clauses use >verbs with suffixes that are the same as case endings (even the ergative >when the noun clause is the subject of a transitive verb).
Indeed, it seems to me very much the same idea as Azak :) Ray.