Re: Muta cum liquida in JRRT (was "Double stressed" words)

Hello,

John wrote:
[...]
> Likewise in the line "Of mighty kings in Nargothrond" in
> Gimli's chant.
>                       x   -   x  -    x   -  x   -
Yes, that too.

[...]
> No, that scansion is impossible:  "murmurless" has initial stress.
Oops.

> It has to be "Murmurless Esgalduin doth flow",
>                -  x  x   x  -  x-   x     -
> which would be a very clunky line, except that it is plainly imitative
> harmony, which is rare but not unknown in English verse:
Point taken, thanks. Not that it is normal for the verse of the Lay,
though.

> > Esgalduin that fairies call
> > x - x - x - x -
>
> This is just promotion (the assignment of a metrical stress
> to a syllable that
> is rhythmically slack), which constantly occurs in English foot-verse.
Do you mean the second stress? Yes, sure it is.

> > of Feanor's sons, who takes or steals
> > or finding keeps the Silmarils
> > (1640-1)
>
> I think "Silmarils" is purely English.
Not quite, but yes.

> > But there of Finrod's children four
> > were Angrod slain and proud Egnor.
>
> Promotion again.
The trouble with this is that there is not only a promotion, but a
demotion as well - if we assume that _Egnor_ is indeed normally stressed
on the first syllable, we'd have to demote the first syllable and
promote the second one, unless there's a spondee there. I don't know if
it is allowed.

> > Felagund and Orodreth then
>    - x -   x   - x  x     -
Umm, there are eight syllables in the line, and seven in your scansion?

> Promotion on "gund" and "then", otherwise unexceptionable.
Assuming _Orodreth_ is stressed per AppE, and taking this into account:

- x - x x - x -

Two iambic feet followed by two trochaic ones?

> > Lo! Celegorm and Curufin
> > here dwell this very realm within
>
> Promotion.
Noted.

More examples:

Gorlim it was, who wearying (151) - demotion and promotion / spondee,
anyway cf. 212: And thus sad Gorlim, led away

Thingol and deathless Melian (483) - ditto, _Thingol_ otherwise stressed
on the first syllable

Dairon the dark with ferny crown (498)

Tinfang Gelion who still the moon (503) -
demotion-promotion-demotion-promotion? Looks impossible (plus needs a
non-syllabic _i_, which is common in the Lay). This line I can't figure
out. Somehow I feel it should be iambic, perhaps to uphold the -n rhyme.

Curufin, Celegorm the fair / Damrod and Díriel were there (1628-9).

Umboth-Muilin, Twilight Meres (1730) - _ui_ broken down, no problem
there, but _Umboth_ shows a demotion-promotion again, or else it's a
trochaic line.

of Orodreth set it: Brother mine (nine syllables, I can't figure out the
meter)

Tavros, whose horns did blow (2246), Tavros intially-stressed also met

Celegorm listened. Nought he said (2338)

&c. &c.

[...]
> > Etc. etc. So evidence form verse is something to be
> cautious about here.
>
> Indeed.
Yes, the point of the above is that while the verses may be normal from
the point of view of English metrics, Elvish stresses can be different
from the prose ones

Note also that it is not only stress that suffers from English verse:
such as _Beleriand_ rhyming with _land_ at least twice.

Pavel
--
Pavel Iosad               pavel_iosad@mail.ru

Nid byd, byd heb wybodaeth
                 --Welsh saying

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