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Re: CHAT: pacifism

From:Ray Brown <ray.brown@...>
Date:Saturday, December 20, 2003, 19:42
On Saturday, December 20, 2003, at 06:31 AM, J Y S Czhang wrote:
[snip]
> The bone oracle dice have been cast, the handwriting is on the > cracked, > fracturing wall - _Mene Mene Tekel Upharsin_ ...
So the KJV has it - but the U- before last word is the Hebrew 'wau' and just means "and'. The Jerusalem Bible translation has: "_Mene, Mene, Tekel_ and _Parsin_" The Septuagint has: Μανή, Θεκέλ, Φάρες Tranliteration: "Mane:, Thekel, Phares" The Vulgate has: Mane, Thecel, Phares
> [Aramic,
Is it? Then it's a bit that, according to the story, none of the king's sages could read it. I mean, Aramaic wasn't exactly an unknown language!
> literally translated:
My understanding is that the literal meaning of the words are unknown.
> "numbered, numbered, weighed, divided"...
Connecting Mene/Mane with Aramaic _mena_ (according to one source)? Others have suggested connexion with te Greek _mna_ (Latinized as 'mina'), a Greek measure of weight. T(h)ekel - is usually thought to mean 'shekel' (another measurement of weight). 'Parsin' in the extant Hebrew/Aramaic version is the plural of _Peres_ which is actually given in the KJV of verse 28. As for _Peres/ Phares_, I gather there is an Aramaic word _peres_ meaning 'divided'; but some have taken it as _paras_ (a weight of half a mna) and others have seen a connexion with _Paras_ (plural _Pharsin_) "Persians". Hopefully, the Semiticists on the list can comment on the Aramaic. What we do have, of course, is Daniel's _interpretation_ of the writing. [snip]
> You & your Imperialistic, Decadent Civilization has been Counted > & > Counted Again, Weighed, is found severely Lacking-&-Wanting... > ... It will be Divided & Torn-Apart/Asunder in an Earth-shaking, > world-shattering Final Conflict rivalling that of the Fall of the Roman > Empire,...
..as the Roman Empire did _not_ fall in any earth-shaking, world-shattering final conflict - indeed, there was no even less dramatic final conflict - either the comparison doesn't hold good or we have nothing to be concerned about. In one of his poems, T.S. Eliot wrote: "This is the way the world ends, not in a bang but a whimper." 'twas certainly the way the Roman Empire ended - and the whimper was a few centuries of withering away - no great bang. So if the passing of our civilization is to rival that of Imperial Rome, we're in for a few centuries of gradual decline as a new order emerges (presumably neo-feudalism :) - but forget the apocalyptic bang. Ray =============================================== http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown ray.brown@freeuk.com (home) raymond.brown@kingston-college.ac.uk (work) =============================================== "A mind which thinks at its own expense will always interfere with language." J.G. Hamann, 1760

Replies

John Cowan <cowan@...>
dansulani <dansulani@...>Writing on the wall (was Re: Re: CHAT: pacifism(
Muke Tever <hotblack@...>
Peter Bleackley <peter.bleackley@...>