Re: The Chant on the Dog's Grave

14 Feb 2001, D Tse wrote:

> This thread comes from... January 2001.
> I doubt anyone will still be interested
I am still interested. Thank thou very much for this version.

> but I found the English version that a friend of mine finally found.
In what part of the world was it found?
(Or was it in some conworld?
I am supprised that this version
is very similar to the Czech one.)

> "A doggy stole a sausage
> Because he was underfed
> The butcher saw him do it
> And shot him in the head
> And all the little doggies
> Were very sad indeed
> They made a little tombstone
> And on it it did read:
> "A doggy stole a sausage..."
How are the words "underfed" and "head" pronounced?
['woz ,and@'fi:d] does not fit with ['in T@ 'hed].

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14 Feb 2001, John Cowan wrote:

> D Tse scripsit:
> [English]> "A doggy stole a sausage
> [Czech]> >Pes jaternic`ku sez`ral (The dog ate a little sausage)
> > >If more versions will be available,
> > >the reconstruction of the ancient myth behind this song
> > >will be more accurate.
> Well, since the word for "sausage"
> is not reconstructible for PIE,
> much less Nostratic,
> I think that knocks the inheritance theory on the head.
> There remains borrowing as a far morelikely hypothesis.
The word "jiternice, jaternice" is derived from
"játra", which means now "liver",
but is cognate with "entraisl, intestines",
Old Ind. antará-, PIE *en-tro-, Greek entera.

I am not sure about exact translation into English.
My dictionary says:

"prejt" Engl. sausage meat
   Germ. Brät
   Russ. natSinka kolbasy, farS
   Sp. bodrio
   It. impastatura, migliaccio
"jitrnice" Engl. pudding, white pudding, (plain hash-and-crumbs) sausage,
   Fr. andouille, boudin
   Sp. longaniza
   It. salsiccia di fegato
"jelito" Engl. pudding, black pudding (with pork blood and peeled barley),
blood-sausage
   Germ. Blutwurst
   Russ. krovnaja kolbasa
   Sp. embutido, morcilla, pudín
   It. sanguinaccio
"tlacenka" Engl. collared pork, brawn, haggis
   Germ. Preßwurst
   Sp. embuchado, morcilla alemana
"klobása" Engl. sausage, meat-sausage
   Germ. Bratwurst, Zervelatwurst
   Russ. kolbasa
   Fr. cervelas, saucisse
   Sp. longaniza, salchicha
   It. salsiccia
"salám" Engl. salame, salami, sausage
   Germ. Wurst
   Russ. kolbasa
   Fr. saucisson
   It. salame
"párek" Engl. frankfurter, sausage
   Germ. Bockwurst, Würstchen, Würstlein
   Russ. sosiska
   Fr. saucisse
   Sp. salsicciotto
"uzenka, vur`t, bur`t"
   Germ. Würstchen, Zervelatwurst, Würstel
"uzenina" Engl. sausage
   Germ. Knackwurst, Wurst, Räucherware, Selchware
   Fr. charcuterie, saucisse
   It. salame
"uzeniny" Engl. smoked goods
   Germ. Räucherwaren, Selchwaren, Würste, Wurstwaren
   Russ. kopc`ënosti
   Fr. charcuterie
   Sp. embutido
   It. insaccati, salumi
"uzený" Engl. smoke-dried
   Germ. geräuchert, geselcht
   Russ. kopc`ënyj
   Fr. boucané
   Sp. ahumado
   It. affumicato
"udit" Engl. bloat, cure, dry-cure, fume, gammon, smoke, smoke-dry
   Germ. räuchern
   Russ. koptit'
   Fr. boucaner, fumer
   Sp. ahumar, curar
   It. affumicare, fumigare
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14 Feb 2001, jesse stephen bangs wrote:

> > >I belive that the song,
> > >which can be named "The chant of the dog's gravestone",
> > >is at least of Proto-Indo-European origin,
> > >if not even of Nostratic origin;
> I wonder where you get this idea.
I wondered how the Czech version and the Russian one are related.
The stories are basically similar, but it does not look like a translation,
and even the melodies are different.

> What are you basing the assertion that it's from the PIE level from?
I expected that there may be some similar cyclic songs
all over the world (borrowed or of indepedent origin).
Then it would be not so dificult to fake some plausible theory.
But my assumption proved to be wrong,
for only one of 246 subscribers knows it.

> another listmember said
> that because the PIE word for 'sausage' isn't reconstructible,
> the poem could not possibly be of that age.
> That's not necessarily true,
> as borrowings and neologisms could have replaced older words
> while the narrative structure remained the same.
> In that case, though,
> we would expect to find words other than 'sausage'
> attested in some versions of the song.
There is less specific "kusok mjasa"  = "a litle piece of meat" in the
Russian version.

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15 Feb 2001, Dan Sulani wrote:
>funerary writing in ancient times
>was usually ordered by royalty and carried out by scribes.
>Neither royaly nor scribes seem to have been mentioned
According to the Russian version,
the inscription was made by the priest.

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17 Feb 2001 kam@CARROT.CLARA.NET wrote:
>Well I'll put my money on the cultural diffusion theory.
>The Slavs no doubt got it from the Greeks,
>who would have got it (like much else) from the Phoenicians,
>and they got *everywhere*.
The Egyptians were singig this song at summer solstice.
Then the soul of the dead dog apeared on the sky
as the dog star - Sirius.

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19 Feb 2001, kam@CARROT.CLARA.NET wrote:

>it's surely possible that the song antedates writing
>(or at least widespread literacy)
>as it might originally have referred
>not to a written epitaph, but to a poem or oration
>recited over the grave
Good idea. This solves the problem
with nonexistence of PIE word for "write".

>So could the Dog's Grave have begun
>as a spoof on the sort of poems
>composed in praise of fallen heros?
Another possibility is that
it describes the sacrifice of a dog, *kuvonmédha.
I imagine the ritual so:
Having inspected the liver,
the haruspex left it on the altar.
The dog which found and eat it
was suposed to be chosen by the gods
and sacrificed to them.

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21 Feb 2001, kam@CARROT.CLARA.NET wrote:

>the main protaganist of "Tain Bo Cuailnge",
>Cu Chulainn, has like many Celtic warriors,
>a name that literally means "dog"!
It is very promissing clue:

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/carrickman/cuchulainn1.html says:

>Setanta approached the house of Culann playing his game
>of throwing the hurling-ball in the air
>and hitting it with his hurling-stick
[...]
>The hound sprang and Setanta at the last moment
>dropped the stick and ball and the spear
>and tackled the hound with his two bare hands.
>He grabbed it's throat in one hand and it's back by the other
>and hurled it against a pillar with such force
>it was hard to see it had been a hound by it's remains.
http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~dc920/boyd.html says:

>With his club and his ball
>he shortened the way for himself as he went.
[...]
>as the dog charged at him openjawed
>he threw his playing ball down his throat with great force,
>which mortally punished the creature's inwards.
>Cu Chulainn siezed him by the hind legs
>and banged him against a rock to such purpose
>that he strewed all the ground in broken fragments.
It seems more probable that he did not drop his club
but knocked the dog's head with it instead.
So we may reconstruct a suppositional version,
someting like that:

The dog wanted to eat
little Setanta,
but he shot him first with his ball
and then slayed him with his club.

Culann the blacksmith was weeping
and made a cairn for him;
and Cathbad the druid
was singing this song: ...

                Pavel

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