Re: Grie Ka #2 : ( the weirdest? aspects of Ka )

From: "Muke Tever" <alrivera@...>
> Wow!  I would never have come up with a feature like that myself.  {igsa}
> connects {zxofeilantem jons wasyef} and {ettimaintemi kjeanpenilecu}, with no
> other copula, and relates them temporally, the latter being marked as after
the
> former!
Thanks! I am really flattered.
But I'm afraid Ka grammer is less fascinating than what you mentioned above. :-)
Let me clarify a little bit.

Actually the structure of the sentence above is like this:
Hiro = igsa zxofeilantem jons wasyef = ettimaintemi kjeanpenilecu
So igsa is not connecting {zxofeilantem jons wasyef} and {ettimaintemi
kjeanpenilecu}.
As for copula, the letter m in the two words are acting as copula,
  zxofeilaintem  etimaintemi
                   ^                ^
these letter m indicates that this word is acting as adjective to the word
located immediately before it. And... the reason why igsa is called a 'filter'
is that this m relationship is 'going through it.'

>
> So the tense is unmarked... and apparently {igsa X Y} is translated as {igsa
> PAST, PRESENT}--once hated, reads now... To a Grie Ka speaker, is it {igsa
PAST,
> PRESENT} or just {igsa BEFORE, AFTER} ?
{Y = igsa X} just means{AFTER = igsa BEFORE}. But in this particular case, a Ka
speaker understands Hiro = igsa zxofeilantem jons wasyef = ettimaintemi
kjeanpenilecu = (PRESENT).  The thing is tense is not _explicitly_ expressed but
can be indicated _implicitly_ :-)  In this case, the mood indicator 'ain' in the
word 'ettimaintemi' suggests it is present tense.
(When 'ain' mood is used, the sentence deals with the fact felt by the speaker's
heart,
and the default tense is present.)
But then you may notice that 'zxofeilaintem' has the same 'ain' indicator, and
you may ask why this cannot be present?  I admit this looks really illogical but
I
would say no matter how it looks illogical, a language has its own logic in it.
Well.... let me explain this when time has come ( maybe Grie Ka #7 or 8??)

> What I mean to say is, if one wants to mark tense with one of these
participles,
> is it required to only use it to make {igsa X, Y} mean {igsa PRESENT, FUTURE},
> or is one also necessary to make {igsa X, Y} mean {igsa PAST, PRESENT}?
Whenever a Ka speaker wants the sentence clearer, s/he would say,

  Sai Hiro igsa zxofeilaintem jons wasyef, ettimaintemi kjeanpenilecu!
  Ja Hiro igsa sai zxofeilaintem jons wasyef, ettimiintemi kjeanpenilecu!

(Note that in the latter sentence, sai is used as a filter!)
So..yes, one of these paticiples is _requred_ to use it to make (FUTURE = igsa
PRESENT) or (FUTURE = igsa PAST) but it is O.K. to use it to make (PRESENT =
igsa PAST).

>[Or is
> the introduction of tense merely a requirement of translation into English?]
This is really a good point. To tell you the truth, as a Ka speaker, I am a
little bit lax about tense.
And I don't know exactly what really present tense means.
O.K. let me give you an example.
When a Ka speaker says the sentense " Hiro igsa zxofeilaintem jons wasyef,
ettimaintemi kjeanpenilecu! "
I don't think the speaker has to check Hiro almost everyday to be truthful to
his or her words.
Suppose that the last date s/he checked the fact was, say, 1 week ago, and Hiro
suddenly quited reading manga 5 days ago.
The amasing thing is in Ka, " Hiro igsa zxofeilaintem jons wasyef, ettimaintemi
kjeanpenilecu! " is still a truthful sentense.
But...."Sai Hiro igsa zxofeilaintem jons wasyef, ettimaintemi kjeanpenilecu!" is
getting a little bit questionable!!
Well, I think I already confused you guys enough.

A quick etymological note:
wasyef /was9f/ consists of wa + syef.
syef     : (suffix)  'artistic products'
wa       : stems from Japanese word 'manga'
              (In traditional orthography manga is written as 'mangwa')

BTW, I am a great lover of traditional Japanese orthography.
Because it represents the history of the Japanese language and you can see the
logical relationship among the related words more clearly.
And I am tempted to write Japanese sentenses in the traditional way even in
Roman characters :-)
Would anyone in the list complain about it if I do this?

Hiro

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