Theiling Online    Sitemap    Conlang Mailing List HQ   

Re: Ygyde as an IAL

From:Joseph Fatula <fatula3@...>
Date:Saturday, January 25, 2003, 2:38
This message is specifically for Andrew Nowicki, and all those with any
interest in the Ygyde language.  In it, I discuss my earlier post in my own
attempt at using Ygyde.  According to Andrew, it was incomprehensible.
Seeing as Ygyde is a logical language, I break the words down, morpheme by
morpheme, to see if any sense can be made out of them.  I ask for your
feedback on whether or not my explanation 1) makes sense and 2) is in line
with the forms of Ygyde.


From: "Andrew Nowicki" <andrew@...>
Subject: Re: Ygyde as an IAL


> Your texts do not follow grammatical rules of > Ygyde and contain plenty of words that are not > defined in the dictionary. I have no idea what > your texts mean.
To quote the Ygyde Primer (http://phz.web1000.com/ygydep.htm): "There are currently no actual grammatical rules in Ygyde." The text I translated into Ygyde was straight from English, keeping the same word order as much as possible. So any preconceived grammatical notions I might have used should be the same as those such notions that you would use, both of us being English speakers. As far as word creation goes, I used the word-creation tables from the Ygyde Primer. Each of their syllables has a single, defined meaning. Unfortunately, many of the things I wanted to say did not have any way to be easily said in Ygyde. According to the Primer, "Ygyde is also a logical language, meaning that it was created with the intention of having as little syntactical ambiguity as possible." I'm going to go through and explain why I translated my first message (being the longer of the two) the way I did. Since apparently you couldn't understand any of it, I obviously do not understand the rules of Ygyde. It looks like a very interesting concept for a language (so much so that it inspired me to make my own!), so I'd very much appreciate it if you'd follow through my message here and then show me how you would say the same thing, but correctly. --- The original message: Ila uzipy y edeja osoji iko ykidu: Ygyde apinolu iby? Ilu igo uzoce idi a ilu otupo ososode, ije eba ilu eba izaji owi onolu. Ica e ilu itu ebu ebe ucofulu ososode y, ilu ufesilu igo ufaza idi a ofa ysy a opyso a otyge. Ini ida Ygyde ija upici ili ibo? Ojy olelu ila ujema ida a ilu osocilu ili agy igocilu afu o odesy. Ije ige ilu, ila ujema o ysi. Olo odi, agosylu inomalu ilu iju iju eba igo ugynolu idi ypy icylu agytulu odesy. O omamelusy a Ygyde ija agosylu igu ofa o ypy itu otyge. Inu ogodete u akasy anodi. Ije ilu iki o ila ymuci. Ili usinolu ymuci a agifo ypy. Ica e o ypy any uwolu utumume ilu, ima e ini ili ykekilu e any aka akaku y y y ilu epa ebe ucofulu ili a ilu o otupo eba utumume ilu unozymo. Ini o otupo a ilu yde umulu ibo? We'll break it down into one sentence at a time. Given the length of this text, we will only use the first two paragraphs. All of my citations and syllable meanings are taken straight from the Ygyde Primer, the address of which I have posted above. For each word, I am separating individual morphemes with a period/full-stop. Starting from the top, we have: Ila uzipy y edeja osoji iko ykidu: ila = 1st-person-pronoun uzipy = verb.mobile.person y = ) edeja = adjective.language.craftsman osoji = noun.group.place iko = with ykidu = noun.massive.knowledge Reading this over, what can we figure out? The "y" is clearly a mistake, as it must accompany a preceding "e", which it does not do. But leaving that aside, what do the words mean? "Uzipy" is some sort of action, involving a person, and involving motion. Surely it must mean a verb like "to go" or "to walk", where a person is the actor. "Edeja"? It's about a language-craftsman. That seems like a perfectly good name for a conlanger to me. So as an adjective, this must mean "conlanger-ish". And "osoji" is the place of a group. According to the Primer, adjectives must go next to the word they describe, so "edeja osoji" must mean "place of a conlangers' group". Given the forum in which the message was written, this could easily mean the Conlang e-mail list. "Ykidu" is some body of knowledge, followed by a colon, indicating that perhaps that which follows is that object. So it seems that this sentence says: "I go conlangers' group with a knowledge-thing:" It's not clear what the speaker intends to present, but we know he's bringing it to the Conlang group. Ygyde apinolu iby? ygyde = noun.simple.language apinolu = adjective.attractive.true.abstraction iby = question (that requires a yes/no answer) According to the Primer, under the comments on "ufolu", no verb is required where the copula is used in English. So this yes/no question means: "Is Ygyde attractive/true?". Ilu igo uzoce idi a ilu otupo ososode, ije eba ilu eba izaji owi onolu. ilu = this/it/its/these igo = passive uzoce = verb.busy.communication idi = by (indicating author, agent, etc.) a = of ilu = this/it/its/these otupo = noun.manager.parent ososode = noun.good.group.language ije = but eba = past ilu = this/it/its/these eba = past izaji = verb.container.place owi = little onolu = noun.work.abstraction Only a few words here that aren't defined by a single word in English. "Uzoce" is some sort of communciative action that is quite busy. "Izaji" is an action containing something in place. Perhaps "to have" or "to keep"? "Onolu" is an abstraction of "work". It could mean "action" or "success", perhaps. "Ososode" is interesting. It's something good, and it involves a group, and it has to do with language. What would be a good group language? Probably a language that would be spoken by a group, and would be good for that group. Sounds like an auxlang to me. Let's put this sentence together, "It is busily-communicated by its manager-parent language auxlang, but in the past it had-kept little action-success." Ica e ilu itu ebu ebe ucofulu ososode y, ilu ufesilu igo ufaza idi a ofa ysy a opyso a otyge. ica = if e = ( ilu = this/it/its/these itu = at/near ebu = period-of-time ebe = future ucofulu = verb.changing.new.abstraction ososode = noun.good.group.language y = ) ilu = this/it/its/these ufesilu = verb.legal.safe.abstraction igo = passive ufaza = verb.owned.container idi = by a = of ofa = almost-complete ysy = part a = of opyso = noun.person.group a = of otyge = noun.country.environment "Ucofulu" seems to indicate something becoming new. "Ososode" (as discussed above) seems to mean "auxlang". "Ufesilu" is something both legal and safe, but abstract. By virtue of the fact that is is both legal and safe, it's probably required, or at least recommended. As an abstraction, that's probably all the definition we'll get from it. "Ufaza" is some sort of verb like "to hold". "Opyso a otyge" is a group of people, the people of the environment of countries. This could mean the world as a whole. So what do we have? "If it in future time becomes auxlang, it ought to / must be held by almost-complete part's people of world." Ini ida Ygyde ija upici ili ibo? ini = what ida = in ygyde = noun.simple.language ija = assumption/hypothesis upici = verb.attractive.manipulation ili = that/it/its/those ibo = question (that requires a more elaborated reply) This is a pretty straightforward question. "What in Ygyde would cause-to-seem-good/make-attractive it?" Ojy olelu ila ujema ida a ilu osocilu ili agy igocilu afu o odesy. ojy = one olelu = noun.unit.abstraction ila = 1st-person-pronoun ujema = verb.gained.detector ida = in a = of ilu = this/it/its/these osocilu = noun.good.manipulation.abstraction ili = that/it/its/those agy = simple igocilu = verb.complex.manipulation.abstraction afu = new o = plural odesy = noun.language.part "Ujema" could mean "to begin to detect" or something like that. "Osocilu" is some abstract quality of goodness and change. Perhaps "benefit"? "Igocilu" seems to be "to create" for something complex. And "odesy"? Perhaps "sentence" or "word" or "morpheme". So this sentence could mean something like: "One thing I begin to detect in its benefit, that simple to make new words." Let's look at what we've got so far. I go conlangers' group with a knowledge-thing: Is Ygyde attractive/true? It is busily-communicated by its manager-parent language auxlang, but in the past it had-kept little action-success. If it in future time becomes auxlang, it ought to / must be held by almost-complete part's people of world. What in Ygyde would cause-to-seem-good/make-attractive it? One thing I begin to detect in its benefit, that simple to make new words. Now, I know that, Andrew, you say this text was incomprehensible, but it doesn't seem that way to me. Even if my grammar was wrong, it seems to have some obvious meaning. But I'm no expert on Ygyde. And so, I submit to you the full text of the original message, as I wrote it in English. Please show me how I should have translated it into Ygyde, which looks like an interesting language. Don't give up on it too quickly! I come to the conlang list with a question: Is Ygyde plausible? It is proposed by its creator to be an auxlang, but so far it has had little success. If it is ever to become an auxlang, it must be accepted by a substantial portion of the world's population. What about Ygyde would promote that? The only thing I see in its favor is that it's easy to make up new words. But against it, I see several factors. First, it is hard to figure out what exactly was meant by someone using a particular word. The sounds of Ygyde would be very difficult for most people in the world. And the grammar is poorly defined. But this is only my opinion. What matters is the opinion of the common man. If people are not willing to learn it, for whatever reason - no matter how petty - it will never become what its creators intended it to be. What do the makers of this language think? Joe Fatula

Reply

Eamon Graham <robertg@...>