Re: question on sampa representation

Roger Mills wrote:

> David Barrow wrote:
> > > On Sun, 23 Mar 2003, David Barrow wrote:
> > >
> > > > The IPA symbol the Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English uses for
> > > > vowel in the above words in RP can be rendered as /Q/ in SAMPA; it
> > > > uses the same symbol for the GA but followed by a colon, so should I
> > > > render the GA vowel as /Q:/ ?
> > > <snip>
> > > > doesn't show colons, so should this vowel be /A/ or /A:/ ?
> > >
> (snip Tristan's relevant reply)
>
> > Does this mean I should have used [ ] rather than / /?
>
> Yes, I think so. It would be a little pointless for a pronouncing dictionary
> to give a phonemic /.../ representation, since the phonemes (contrastive
> units) can be realized in different ways in different dialect areas, whereas
> the phonetic [...] writing is presumably accurate and invariant, at least
> for the speakers for whom the Pron.Dict. is intended.
> >
> > I was indicating that the LDCE uses the same symbol for the vowel in GA
> > "long" as it does for the vowel in RP "long" and uses a colon to
> > differentiate the two.
>
> I find that odd, too.  It may have to do with the RP perception that
> Amer.Engl is "drawled", as opposed to the AE perception that RP is
> "clipped". As Tristan pointed out, vowels are phonetically short (at least
> in monosyllables) before a voiceless final stop, lengthened before a voiced
> final stop; it may be that AE lengthens vowels a bit more before a final
> nasal (this could be (dis)proven instrumentally)
> >
> > Are there any GA speakers on the list? If so:
> General American? Probably lots, including me.......
> >
> > do you pronounce the "o" in "long" differently from the "o" in "hot" ?
>
> Very much so. (Following the sound samples at
> http://hctv.humnet.ucla.edu/departments/linguistics/VowelsandConsonants/vowe
> ls/contents.html
> I have [Q:] in "long" (reversed script a in the low right corner of their
> chart), versus [a] in "hot" (some would claim it's [A] (script a), but not
> for me). Some might claim, too, that US "long" has [O:] -- the problem is
> that AE has only one contrastive sound in low-back-rounded position, and it
> may vary beween [Q] and [O]. Same for the central vowel, phonemic /@/ but
> phonetically [@], [V], [3], [1] depending on stress, following consonant
> etc.
>
> > are you familiar with British "o" in "hot" and "long"?
> Not completely; my impression is that RP has [O] (backward c) in "hot"; I'm
> unsure about RP "long" but suspect it's a different vowel, probably [Q].
>
They're the same [Q]


>
> > If the colon is for length, is your pronunciation of "long" simply a
> longer
> > version of British "long" ?
>
> In isolation/citation form, probably yes, but only because of the following
> nasal; and in speech it might vary.  "Long ago...." sounds shorter than
> "(the lecture) was long".
>
> and its ok to use Q and Q:
> It depends what you're trying to show......;-)
I'm looking for a symbol I can use for the sound "o" in GA "long"  rather than
the in GA "hot" and which someone familiar with SAMPA could understand without
any need for clarification.

> > If the difference is not a question of length how would you represent in
> > SAMPA
> >
> > GA "hot" phonetic [hat], phonemic /hat/
> > GA "long" phonetic [lQN] or maybe [lON], phonemic (US usage) /lON/
I thought [Q] (no colon) represented the British short "o"  (this sound doesn't
exist in AE, or so I've read somewhere)

LCDE has reverse script a [Q] for RP "hot" "long" "dog" "cot"

1) It has script a (with a colon) for RP/GA "father"  "car"  RP "bath" "last" GA
"hot" "nod" (Is your use of [a] rather than [A] a good explanation as to why the
vowels in RP "bath" and GA "hot" don't sound the same to me?

2) It has reverse script a (with a colon) ([Q:]?) for GA "dog" "long" "law"
"lawn" "caught" "broad". Do you pronounce the vowel in these the same? Allowing
for the voicing/unvoicing or any other influence of the following consonant that
is.

3) It has reverse c (with a colon) [O] for RP "law" "lawn" "caught" "broad" and
RP/GA "court" "horse" but not for GA "dog" "long" "law" "lawn" "caught" "broad"
the site you mention above unlike the LDCE has this symbol for both RP and GA
bawed

In non rhotic RP (and my (equally non rhotic) pronunciation) caught and court
are homophones

If the answer to 2) is no, do you pronounce the vowel in caught and court the
same?

David Barrow

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