Re: question on sampa representation

David Barrow wrote:
> > On Sun, 23 Mar 2003, David Barrow wrote:
> >
> > > The IPA symbol the Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English uses for
> > > vowel in the above words in RP can be rendered as /Q/ in SAMPA; it
> > > uses the same symbol for the GA but followed by a colon, so should I
> > > render the GA vowel as /Q:/ ?
> > <snip>
> > > doesn't show colons, so should this vowel be /A/ or /A:/ ?
> >
(snip Tristan's relevant reply)

> Does this mean I should have used [ ] rather than / /?
Yes, I think so. It would be a little pointless for a pronouncing dictionary
to give a phonemic /.../ representation, since the phonemes (contrastive
units) can be realized in different ways in different dialect areas, whereas
the phonetic [...] writing is presumably accurate and invariant, at least
for the speakers for whom the Pron.Dict. is intended.
>
> I was indicating that the LDCE uses the same symbol for the vowel in GA
> "long" as it does for the vowel in RP "long" and uses a colon to
> differentiate the two.
I find that odd, too.  It may have to do with the RP perception that
Amer.Engl is "drawled", as opposed to the AE perception that RP is
"clipped". As Tristan pointed out, vowels are phonetically short (at least
in monosyllables) before a voiceless final stop, lengthened before a voiced
final stop; it may be that AE lengthens vowels a bit more before a final
nasal (this could be (dis)proven instrumentally)
>
> Are there any GA speakers on the list? If so:
General American? Probably lots, including me.......
>
> do you pronounce the "o" in "long" differently from the "o" in "hot" ?
Very much so. (Following the sound samples at
http://hctv.humnet.ucla.edu/departments/linguistics/VowelsandConsonants/vowe
ls/contents.html
I have [Q:] in "long" (reversed script a in the low right corner of their
chart), versus [a] in "hot" (some would claim it's [A] (script a), but not
for me). Some might claim, too, that US "long" has [O:] -- the problem is
that AE has only one contrastive sound in low-back-rounded position, and it
may vary beween [Q] and [O]. Same for the central vowel, phonemic /@/ but
phonetically [@], [V], [3], [1] depending on stress, following consonant
etc.

> are you familiar with British "o" in "hot" and "long"?
Not completely; my impression is that RP has [O] (backward c) in "hot"; I'm
unsure about RP "long" but suspect it's a different vowel, probably [Q].

> If the colon is for length, is your pronunciation of "long" simply a
longer
> version of British "long" ?
In isolation/citation form, probably yes, but only because of the following
nasal; and in speech it might vary.  "Long ago...." sounds shorter than
"(the lecture) was long".

and its ok to use Q and Q:
It depends what you're trying to show......;-)

> If the difference is not a question of length how would you represent in
> SAMPA
>
> GA "hot" phonetic [hat], phonemic /hat/
> GA "long" phonetic [lQN] or maybe [lON], phonemic (US usage) /lON/

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