Re: rhotics (was: Hellenish oddities)

Douglas Koller wrote:
>Géarthnuns has the Spanish r (the letter "rín"), which I believe is written
>in Kirshenbaum as /*/; it also has what I've described as a very breathy,
>voiceless French r, sort of like the "r" in "encre" or "battre" in allegro
>speech,
        Theoretically, that should be an uvular fricative, devoiced in these
particular environments....but I wonder if it hasn't been drawn forward (to
_velar_) due to the preceding palatal/dental consonants???  (I've never been
able to produce a proper French trilled uvular /r/-- sounds a bit like
imitating a dog's growl).

 but only syllable initial in Géarthnuns (I think /X/?)(the letter
>"rhamas"). However, having recently heard a story on Radio Netherlands via
>National Public Radio about menopause counselors in the Netherlands (they
>used the word, "overgang" or "overgrang"?, "transition" now expanded in
>meaning to "menopause"), I am now wondering if Dutch "g" or "gr" might be a
>better description, 'cause it sounded damn close. Anyway, the Géarthçins
>perceive "rhamas" as the "cousin" of "vaukh", another letter like the
German
>"ch" in "Bach" (/x/), which is only syllable final and non-rhoticized.

That would be "overgang".  Dutch /g/ is a voiceless velar fricative, with,
to my ear, lots of friction (and potential spray ;-)  ).  Again, in this
particular word, I'm not sure how the preceding r (possibly uvular in
Dutch???) might be affecting the g.

Since syl-final "vaukh" and syl-initial "rhamas" are in complimentary
distribution, they could well be "the same sound", even if one is velar, the
other uvular.