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Re: Subject/Object participles

From:R A Brown <ray@...>
Date:Friday, September 5, 2008, 12:53
Jeffrey Jones wrote:
> On Fri, 5 Sep 2008 06:46:34 -0500, Matthew <ave.jor@...> wrote: >> R A Brown wrote: >>> This was situation in Vulgar Latin and is the origin of the >>> distinction observed in most (but not modern Spanish) Romance langs, >>> cf. French: >>> il est venue <-- *(ille) est venutus = he is having-come (cf. >>> Esperanto 'li estas venita') >>> but: >>> il a lit le livre <-- (ille) habet lectum illum librum = he has the >>> read (having been read) book. >>> >>> You will notice the lack of asterisk before the second example because >>> this construction, which was obviously commonplace in Vulgar Latin, is >>> also attested to a limited extent in the Classical language. >>> ==================================== >> I have a problem with the phrase,/ il a lit le livre/; I can't make any >> sense of it, and to me it defiantly does not seem to correspond to the >> English translation. >> I think that "he has the read book", in French would be /il a le livre lu >> /whereas/ *il a lit le livre : he has (is reading/reads) the book/ and >> i f by /lit /you meant /lu/, then it would be "he has read the book". I >> my self would put He has the read book (which to me seems wrong somehow >> anyway) as /il a le livre qui a été lu. >> /If I'm missing something, please tell me so, and if I'm right, glad I >> could help :)/ >> / > > This is interesting. Since I don't speak French, I thought it might be a > difference in dialect,
No it ain't - just gross careless from someone suffering hypocaffeination at the time :( Somewhere I recalled _lectun_ --> _lit_ - but that's the word for *bed*!! Of course I should have written _il a lu le livre_ ..and that rather spoils the Latin equivalent. It's one of the many instances where the Vulgar Latin of north Gaul remodeled the past participle; instead of the Latin _legere_ ~ _lectu(m)_ in North Gaul one had _legere_ ~ *legu:tu(m) Sadly my lapse in concentration has drawn attention away from the actual subject of the thread. Mea culpa! -- Ray ================================== ================================== Frustra fit per plura quod potest fieri per pauciora. [William of Ockham]