Re: Reinventing NATLANGs

Thanks for this.  It clears up a lot of confusion about the Germanic
language/s continuum.

On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 09:32, daniel prohaska wrote:
> Some terminology:
>
> -        Hochdeutsch = Standard Written German;
>
>
>
> -        Plattdeutsch = Northern and north-Central German dialects that
> haven’t or have only partially undergone the 2nd German consonant shift; A
> more “official” designation <Niederdeutsch> is used as well.
>
>
>
> -        Oberdeutsch: the collection of dialects, or the dialect continuum
> that has completely or for the most part undergone the 2nd German consonant
> shift: Allemannic (Allemannisch, Schwäbisch), Bavarian
> (Bairisch-Österreichisch), Upper Franconian (Oberfränkisch); moribund:
> Cimbrian (Zimbrisch), Gottschee-Carinthian;
>
>
>
> -        Mitteldeutsch: The central “belt” of dialects that have partially
> undergone the 2nd German consonant shift: Palatinate (Pfälzisch), Hessian
> (Hessisch), Rhine-Franconian (Rheinfränkisch), Moselle-Franconian
> (Moselfränkisch), Saxon (Sächsisch), Thuringian (Thüringisch), moribund:
> Silesian (Schlesisch), Upper East Prussian (Hochpreußisch);
Saxon (Sächsisch) - is that the dialect of the current Federal State of
Saxony-Anhalt?  Or Lower Saxony?  I was under the impression that Lower
Saxony was where Plattduutsch was spoken.

Rhine-Franconian (Rheinfränkisch) would be spoken in Westphalia?  Westphalia
borders on the Netherlands and France, if I remember correctly.
>
>
>
> -        Niederdeutsch: Northern German dialects that haven’t or have only
> partially undergone the 2nd German consonant shift: East Frisian Low Saxon
> (Ostfriesisch), Northern Low Saxon (Nordniedersächsisch), Eastfalian
> (Ostfälisch), Westfalian (Westfälisch), Brandenburgian (Brandenburgisch),
> Mecklenburgian (Mecklenburgisch), Pommeranian (Pommersch),
> (Alt-Ostelbisch); moribund: Niederpreußisch;
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------
>
>
>
> Althochdeutsch = Old High German
>
> Mittelhochdeutsch = Middle High German
>
> Neuhochdeutsch = Modern High German (Standard German)
>
>
>
> Altsächsisch = Old Saxon
>
> Mittelniederdeutsch = Middle Low German (language of the “Hanse”)
>
> Neuniederdeutsch = Modern Low German dialects
>
>
>
> Dan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Wesley Parish
>
> On Mon, 10 Jul 2006 00:33, Carsten Becker wrote:
> > From: "Michael Adams" <abrigon@...>
> >
> > Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 10:39 PM
> >
> > > Body of literature helps, as seen by Martin Luthers
> > >
> > > translating
> > >
> > > the Bible into HochDeutsch, and then with Gutebburgs
> > >
> > > printers help, spread it around..
> >
> > Misconcepton here: Luther didn't translate the bible into
> >
> > _Hochdeutsch_ but into German in general -- he took features
> >
> > from a number of dialects (as far as I know, don't quote me
> >
> > on that!) and created some kind of "normalized" German. The
> >
> > problem is that the German speaking area is a continuum of
> >
> > dialects more or less mutually intelligible, in Luther's
> >
> > times this was even more the case than today, though, where
> >
> > we have regiolects rather than local dialects due to the
> >
> > omnipresence of _Hochdeutsch_. The actually correct term for
> >
> > what is commonly known as 'Hochdeutsch' should be
> >
> > _Standarddeutsch_, since historically, 'Hochdeutsch' refers
> >
> > to the Upper German dialects such as the Bavarian, Frankish
> >
> > and Allemanic. Having lived in Saxony and Thuringia, Luther
>
> Saxony - wouldn't that be the kingdom now comprising most of the federal
> state
>
> of Saxony-Anhalt?  Thuringia was - to some degree, if I understand the
>
> history of German dialects properly - where Plattduutsch was spoken.  That
>
> was on the east side of Ostphalia and bordered on Bohemia?
>
> > thus spoke neither a Lower German nor Upper German dialect
> >
> > (which are not mutually intelligible!) but a Middle German
> >
> > one, and Middle German is -- well -- a 'middle' thing. As
>
> Mittelhochdeutsch was the language I was taught in High School.  So it
> would
>
>
> be a "Standarddeutsch" with a predominance of "Hochdeutsch" features?  If
> it
>
>
> had been the other way around, I expect it would've been named
>
> "Mittelplattdeutsch" - which would be the standardized form of the
> languages
>
>
> spoken from Lower Saxony to Gronigen.
>
> > for Luther and Hochdeutsch -- by his translation of the
> >
> > Bible into German, he levelled the way for what later
> >
> > emerged into the current standard. Even in Goethe's and
> >
> > Schiller's time, there was no Standard Language, but the
> >
> > so-called _Bühnensprache_ (stage language) caught on more
> >
> > and more as well outside of theatres.
>
> Courtesy of Goethe and Schiller, no doubt.  Like Shakespeare's language
> became
>
> the basis for written English, along with the language of the Bible
>
> translation authorized by King James for use in churches.
>
> > Carsten
> >
> >
> >
> > And the guy with the types is known as _Johannes Gutenberg_
> >
> > /jo.'hAn@s 'gu:tn=.bE6k/.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > "Miranayam kepauarà naranoaris." (Kalvin nay Hobbes)
> >
> > Pinena, Rayam 20, 2315 ya 06:43:33 pd
--
Clinersterton beademung, with all of love - RIP James Blish
-------------
Mau ki ana, he aha te mea nui?
You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
Maku ki ana, he tangata, he tangata, he tangata.
I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."