Re: can-may

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tristan McLeay" <conlang@...>


> On 27 Dec 2004, at 9.27 pm, B. Garcia wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 21:17:46 +1100, Tristan McLeay
>> Speak for yourself. Maybe in Aussie English everyone uses "can" for
>> permission and omit "may", but here in California, I only ever hear
>> can used in a very informal sense, usually by children, or those who
>> should know better (by that I mean in a formal situation).
Seconded!

> Oh really? I'm surprised. I apologise to anyone I offended! I just
> assumed that seeing as everyone always mentions that 'can' can also be
> used where 'may' is common, and esply from statements like Sally's
> starting with 'Hence the old schoolmarm response when one uses "can"
> when one should use "may" in polite
> circumstances ...', common in all discussions, that my use of 'can' for
> permission was the common.
Okay, so I'm the loathed prescriptionist, apparently! :-)  LOL!  Since #1
asked for a distinction, I gave him the origins of can/may in Old English.
And since he seemed to want the nuance in meanings, I gave it to him.  But
didn't you notice my use of "schoolmarm," Tristan, and "corrective mother"
as subtle parodies of the "prescriptivist" tendencies behind these words? :)
Both Barry and I came up with the identical sarcastic response that is
legion in America.  "Can I have some butter?"  "I don't know, can you"?
It's a joke!  But it's deeply engrained in polite America, and, I gather,
polite England, and polite Canada.  And probably polite Australia.  I would
never, addressing my hostess at a formal dinner, say "Can I have some more
coffee?" any more than I would use the "tu" form with someone I just met in
Geneva.

> I honestly did not realise anyone normally said 'may' for permission,
> and mostly when I hear people mention it, they are hypocritical in that
> they themselves use 'can' when people less picky.
I assume "when" means "with."  Why on earth is that hypocritical?  You are
aware, aren't you, of the different registers of diction people in many many
languages use all the time in different situations?  I say "Can I have the
Entertainment Section?" to my husband at breakfast.  I also use a number of
cruder expressions with my husband to describe ordinary frustrations (or
joys) that I wouldn't use in the classroom or at a board meeting.  And my
"pub" talk with my buddies is a whole lot more coarse than my discourse on
this list.  Anybody who has a sense of his or her audience changes diction
for different occasions.

Barry:
>> Granted, no one really says anything, but where I'm from it's not a
>> pedantic or prescriptivist rule, it's simply the way polite people
>> speak. Why tell him to ignore it when it's just as valid a way of
>> using may?
Well exactly.

> Because it's usually only stated by hypocrites and/or pedants IME. (& I
> don't mean to suggest you are, just that my previous experience was
> incomplete!) Being corrected for misusing 'can' is often unwelcome,
My examples were with the family, which is where everyone acquires their
first lessons in discursive socialization.  Perhaps you associate it with
early teachers and parents, but that bias (and resentment) should be
re-examined.

> and
> I can remember in primary school the (minority of) teachers that
> corrected you were generally disliked and criticised behind their backs
> for doing so. (Secondary school teachers don't normally correct you for
> it, not even in an essay/formal situation.)
You should fall down on your knees and thank these poor people who are
underpaid and disliked, but who do you the unwelcome service of bringing you
into adult mainstream social discourse.  And any teacher in secondary school
who doesn't correct your mistakes in formal essays is more intent on being
liked than on educating.  How are they preparing you for the brutalities of
university and the professional world?  You can learn the "prescriptivist"
language (very useful in the grapholect of any language) and then choose to
use it or not IN THE SOCIAL CIRCLES YOU INHABIT.  But why resent learning
it?  I thought your presence on this list proved you to be open to ALL kinds
of language use.

> And he also wrote:
>> For me, only enforced "you MUST do it this way" prescriptivism is
>> frowned upon. No one said that can and may must be used in one way,
>> and one way only.
That's exactly right.  No one did.  But #1 asked for the distinction.

> Again, from my experience, may-correction falls into that category, and
> gets a reaction from me. I didn't realise that my use was peculiar to
> Australia or unamerican or something.
It's not.  American students who learn the term "prescription" can misapply
it just as readily and as unfairly as you just did.

Sally

Replies