Re: can-may

On 27 Dec 2004, at 9.27 pm, B. Garcia wrote:

> On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 21:17:46 +1100, Tristan McLeay
> <conlang@...> wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender:       Constructed Languages List <CONLANG@...>
>> Poster:       Tristan McLeay <conlang@...>
>> Subject:      Re: can-may
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ---------
>>
>> On 27 Dec 2004, at 4.12 pm, # 1 wrote:
>>
>>> when translated in frensh, "can" and "may" are both translated in
>>> "pouvoir"
>>>
>>> is there a way to clearly divide when to use each?
>>
>> Bah. Ignore everyone else. You'll sound much more native if you use
>> 'can' to describe ability ('I can write') and permission ('You can
>> go'), and 'may' for possibility, when 'might' and 'could' are also
>> possible ('It might/may rain'). (I rarely say 'may' unless I'm doing
>> it
>> for effect or to be pedantic.) (Not all 'might' can become 'may',
>> though.)
>
> Perdón?
>
> Speak for yourself. Maybe in Aussie English everyone uses "can" for
> permission and omit "may", but here in California, I only ever hear
> can used in a very informal sense, usually by children, or those who
> should know better (by that I mean in a formal situation).
Oh really? I'm surprised. I apologise to anyone I offended! I just
assumed that seeing as everyone always mentions that 'can' can also be
used where 'may' is common, and esply from statements like Sally's
starting with 'Hence the old schoolmarm response when one uses "can"
when one should use "may" in polite
circumstances ...', common in all discussions, that my use of 'can' for
permission was the common.

I honestly did not realise anyone normally said 'may' for permission,
and mostly when I hear people mention it, they are hypocritical in that
they themselves use 'can' when people less picky.

Again, sorry!

> We gave the typical rule, which if he used it, wouldn't get corrected.
> Yes, "can" is also used to ask permission, but a lot of people who
> aren't even prescriptivists will say it sounds less than classy (so to
> speak). Do you use "Can" when in a formal environment?
Yes. As I said, 'may' sounds odd, "Correct" or pedantic, and certainly
not normal, casual or formal.

> Granted, no one really says anything, but where I'm from it's not a
> pedantic or prescriptivist rule, it's simply the way polite people
> speak. Why tell him to ignore it when it's just as valid a way of
> using may?
Because it's usually only stated by hypocrites and/or pedants IME. (& I
don't mean to suggest you are, just that my previous experience was
incomplete!) Being corrected for misusing 'can' is often unwelcome, and
I can remember in primary school the (minority of) teachers that
corrected you were generally disliked and criticised behind their backs
for doing so. (Secondary school teachers don't normally correct you for
it, not even in an essay/formal situation.)

> By the way, "may" is still very much alive among people here to
> describe things that will possibly happen.
Oh sorry, I meant that to be clear and fouled up the bracketing; I was
talking about me and what I normally hear, but I am familiar with 'may'
there being normal elsewhere. It would not surprise me if 'may' here
had been generally ousted in response to being correct for using 'can'
for 'may'.

And he also wrote:
> For me, only enforced "you MUST do it this way" prescriptivism is
> frowned upon. No one said that can and may must be used in one way,
> and one way only.
Again, from my experience, may-correction falls into that category, and
gets a reaction from me. I didn't realise that my use was peculiar to
Australia or unamerican or something.

--
Tristan.

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