Re: Romanized Orthography of My Conlang

Ed Heil wrote:
>
> Nik Taylor wrote:
>
> > Well, for one thing, [h] and [N] are not in complementary distribution -
> > both can occur in intervocalic position, e.g. "reheat" (/rihit/) and
> > "singing" (/siNiN/).
>
> Oh, surely "reheat" is /ri$hit/ and "singing" is /siN$iN/ where $ is
> syllable division, no?
>
> [...]
>
> > I disagree.  Determining phonemes must be taken synchronically.
> > Language exists only in the brains of the speakers, and the speakers
> > don't know anything about history when they're learning it.
>
> All right.  I guess I didn't know why Mr. Grandsire felt compelled to
> make a decision one way or another as to whether those two sounds were
> allophones or not, since he already knew all the interesting *facts*
> of the matter, those being (a) "The phones are in complementary
> distribution," (b) "they are phonetically similar," and (c) "speakers
> of the language perceive them as different sounds."
>
> Saying that they are, or are not, different phonemes doesn't seem to
> me to add any factual information; it's merely a matter of choice of
> terminology.
>
        That's what I was talking about. Sorry if you misunderstood me. The
only question I asked is whether I could call those phones allophones or
different phonemes, or if there was a special term for them. I did not
make clear that my question was only a question of terminology and I
apologize for it.

> So I thought that history might be a good thing to bring in to break
> the "tie" so to speak of facts (a) and (b) suggesting they are
> allophones and (c) suggesting they are not.  It's artificial, but the
> whole thing was, in my understanding, artificial.
>
        As far as I know, and taking only an orthographical evidence (like the
English orthography, the French one was once phonetic enough :) ), I
think those two sounds splitted from a common source, and I'm pretty
sure they used to be allophones. Maybe they are allophones in the
process of becoming different phonemes, and in this case the diachronic
approach would be completely consistent. If only I could come up with a
French word with /2/ in a closed syllable, or /9/ in an open syllable,
the debate would be closed... :)

> But perhaps you know better: given facts (a) (b) and (c), are they
> allophones or not, and why?
>
> -------------------------------------------------
>              edheil@postmark.net
> -------------------------------------------------
--
        Christophe Grandsire

        Philips Research Laboratories --  Building WB 145
        Prof. Holstlaan 4
        5656 AA Eindhoven
        The Netherlands

        Phone:  +31-40-27-45006
        E-mail: grandsir@natlab.research.philips.com