Conlang: Re: "Verimak": jumping into the translation marathon (Sally Caves, May 10 '99, 3:29)

Re: "Verimak": jumping into the translation marathon

From:	Sally Caves <scaves@...>
Date:	Monday, May 10, 1999, 3:29

From:

Sally Caves <scaves@...>

Date:

Monday, May 10, 1999, 3:29

--------------BF74460A63E04A68B1A16851 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by nut.brown.edu id UAA27756 Boudewijn Rempt wrote:

> Half past twelve, and I've finished it - this was certainly the > last translation I do this weekend! > > To begin with, I must admit that although the text rings a bell, I > haven't got the faintest inkling as to the original author or his > origin. Although I've read tiny bits of Shelley, Keats and Byron > (especially his speeches to the Parliament), and Shakespeare isn't an > entirely closed book to me, I'm not very well versed in English > literature, let alone American literature. To be sure, there's no poet > from either America on our shelves apart from Poe and Clark Ashton > Smith. I'm completely fresh and unspoiled _vis =E0 vis_ this exercise. > > All the abbreviations have been used before, in the exercises posed by > myself, Nik and Pablo, so I won't repeat them this time, in the > interests of brevity. > > tau.s=FC > NEG.again > Not again > > I recognize that the _s=FC_, 'again', isn't an entirely > adequate translation, but it'll have to do. >

That's okay. Mine won't be either!

> I > > Tan wiha ging tau.arat.hau s=FC > GEN sun heat NEG.fear.IMP again > Don't fear the sun again > > ma tan nahaun'per'qiraw qiraw > or GEN winter anger anger > Or the anger of the angry winter > > This is a strange way of putting it - native speakers > of Denden don't much go in for tautology, as a rule.

It's even more tautological than that: "Or the winter's angry angers." This may be due to my poor glossing of _nifuorod_, which is the Teonaht version of Lat. _furor_.

> di e.di qinadin quelday.ju ga > 2sMGH poss.2sMGH office success.CRT NOM > The success you attain in your office > > _Qinadan_ is especially a civil service job, in the Imperial > government, the most sought after kind. This sentence is sure > to grab the attention of every Charyan in the audience. >

and "office" was supposed to have been modified: "takremait office," where _takremait_ is an adjective. You can throw out my gloss "secular." That doesn't give the right meaning. The other two words do. _uarfy ritimika_ is "you have accomplished, done, completed." Forever. This makes the meaning of _takremait_ much clearer. And the poem and its subject clearer.

> tan kaulon nahan.ju.moi ga > GEN house go.CRT.FUT1 > The great house you will go to > > _Kaulon_ implies a large house, with servants and more than one > patio - the kind of place everyone wants. Most people in the city > have to content themselves with one or two small rooms in an _insula_=

> like building. >

This is so interesting! _hovikary_ has much less grandiose meaning. But I'm learning something about the Charyan culture.

> e.di ram di ambar.ju.moi.nai > poss.2sMGH money 1sMGH collect.CRT.FUT1.PRF > The riches you will have collected. > > It's entirely good form to be _nouveau riche_ in Charya, indeed, it > is attainable for most people. It's easy to come by some money, and > even easier to spend it, which is the right thing to do with it. > So the sentiment expressed in this phrase readily touches the heart o=

> every Charyan. >

This is probably the one instance in which either you or Irina would find the poem culturally incompatible. The _rilbet_ that is taken here is a reference to one of our famous gospel parables. The rest of the poem is free of Christian reference.

> adim.dir harul p drai.dir, > boy.p gold and girl.p > The golden boys and girls > > The Charyans are known als the Haruldandir, the Golden people, on > account of their skin-colour, which is a nice golden-brown-red. This > phrase can only mean 'Charyan children', and it seems to imply > a lot of them, which, as the Charyans are not very fertile, > but like children a lot, is a good thing. >

A lovely complexion! The Teonaht are more olive complected, but with light-colored eyes and hair that grows whiter and whiter with exposure to the sun. So children are born dark-haired and get increasingly blonder until almost platinum in old-age.

> ir ronyeran.dir tan yzi'tohas.dir getyun ga > as cleaner.p GEN chimney.p take NOM > > yechan dayun.ju logh > dust become.CRT like > > will become like the dust chimney-sweeps take > > So we needn't fear sun nor winter, but our riches, our high > office and our children will become like the dust chimney-sweeps > gather? But the office you hold you can bequeth to your children, > who can use it as a stepping stone to attain even higher office, > the money, when wisely invested, will aid the clan in gaining > prestige and security for its members, and children are the joy > of your old age. And if you lose everything, you just start again, > is what a Charyan would say. >

I like this Charyan philosophy, which is turning this grim observation about a common and dreaded aspect of life into an optimistic philosophy.

> II > > tan koruchan.dir mazir tau.arat.hau s=FC > GEN lord.p frown NEG.fear.IMP again > Don't fear the frown of the lords again > > di nele tan nilro'kiraw ghazaw ga > 2sMGH beyond GEN king'bad cruelty NOM > You're beyond the cruelty of bad kings; > > dheret p mai tau.luanotan.hau > meal and clothes NEG.care_about.IMP > Don't care about meals and clothes > > tan di.di gingtan hyet logh > GEN 2sMGH.DUP tree grass like > For you, trees and grass are the same > > utaima.zi p gesen p manushe > hat.AUG and book and medicine > Crowns, books and medicine > > There exists a whole elaborate terminology as regards > head-gear (regal and otherwise), but that's a part I > haven't investigated yet, so I will try to get away > with 'big hat', here. _Manushe_ is medicine, literally > 'sweet herb', because medicinal draughts are traditionally > heavily sugared to make them more palatable. >

Fascinating! As I said in an earlier post, these terms (crown, bo= ok, caduceus) are metonyms. How would that change your Chaldyan interpretation? Of course, metonyms and other symbols are the hardest to transfer from one language to another.

> d desh yiman qoloriar.ju.ini dilogh > this all always follow.CRT.HAB each_other > These certainly always follow upon each other > > and yechan yiman dayun.ju.ni dayun > and dust always become.CRT.HAB > And will always become dust. >

You need the sense of compulsion that is expressed in _hmai_.

> III > > muanir tan woya'perin tau.arat.hau s=FC > stroke GEN heaven.fire NEG.fear.IMP again > Don't fear the caress of lightning again. >

Fepre, "touch," has a more menacing quality. Tepre, "touch," = can be a caress.

> Strange, these caresses, but it's what I > got when looking around for 'stroke'. A bit of > poetic license is allowed? There are a lot of stories > in Andal about the God of Lightning, Yignis having > a good time with the Goddes of Rain, Sheshal. >

Oh, I read you! Yes, of course. A caress from a lightning bo= lt would be fatal... poetic license indeed!

> ma temdem terinadar arat > or thunder noise fear > or the noise of the thunder > > tau arat.hau zunga ma tan mekinda musama.dir > NEG fear.IMP curse or GEN scorn scar.p > Don't fear curses or the scars of scorn. > > Of course, even when you're dead and gone to one of > the Nine hells, you're still quite susceptible to curses > and your children won't allow your name to be sullied, > so this is a bit of nonsense for Charyans. > > e.di nezirir p musir wonir.ju > poss.2sMGH laughing and weeping finished.IMP > Stop your laughing and weeping > > sheshedan.dir p qaivan.dir tuoy qaivan.dir suwonir.ju.ni > suitors.p and lover.p young lover.p give_up.CRT.HAB > Suitors, young lovers and lovers are certainly giving in. >

You need the sense of _aibban_, which is unnamed in the poem, bu= t is the subject of it. They follow "this" --

> Charyan doesn't distinguish between lovers and > loved ones, not even in the sense that the first > are sexual and the second not - it's just not in > the vocabulary. So, what we have here are suitors, > young lovers and lovers... Also, since the next phrase > didn't have any separate content, I've been forced to > make one Denden sentence out of two Teonaht sentences. > > dox yechan yiman dayun.ini > all dust always become.HAB > All allways becomes dust. >

Pretty good, Boudewijn!

> Now I'm getting curiouser and curiouser: who is the author > of this little piece of verse,

I'll tell you presently! !

> and how far of the mark was > my shot? >

Only in those instances that I cited above, where you turn some of the poem into a comment about Chalyan secular life. But hey, that's the name of the game. What would Irina do with this, I wonder? <G> Or Nik or Pablo? Maybe Nik and Pablo are burnt out. I mean, they were involved while I was looking on. Sally --------------BF74460A63E04A68B1A16851 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML>   Boudewijn Rempt wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>Half past twelve, and I've finished it - this was certainly the last translation I do this weekend! To begin with, I must admit that although the text rings a bell, I haven't got the faintest inkling as to the original author or his origin. Although I've read tiny bits of Shelley, Keats and Byron (especially his speeches to the Parliament), and Shakespeare isn't an entirely closed book to me, I'm not very well versed in English literature, let alone American literature. To be sure, there's no poet from either America on our shelves apart from Poe and Clark Ashton Smith. I'm completely fresh and unspoiled _vis à vis_ this exercise. All the abbreviations have been used before, in the exercises posed by myself, Nik and Pablo, so I won't repeat them this time, in the interests of brevity. tau.sü NEG.again Not again I recognize that the _sü_, 'again', isn't an entirely adequate translation, but it'll have to do.  </BLOCKQUOTE> <TT>        That's okay.  Mine won't be either!</TT> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE> I Tan wiha ging tau.arat.hau sü GEN sun  heat NEG.fear.IMP again Don't fear the sun again ma tan nahaun'per'qiraw qiraw or GEN winter     anger anger Or the anger of the angry winter   This is a strange way of putting it - native speakers   of Denden don't much go in for tautology, as a rule.</BLOCKQUOTE>             <TT>It's even more tautological than that:</TT><TT>      "Or the winter's angry angers."  This</TT> <TT>      may be due to my poor glossing of</TT> <TT>      _nifuorod_, which is the Teonaht version</TT> <TT>      of Lat. _furor_.</TT> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>di    e.di       qinadin quelday.ju  ga 2sMGH poss.2sMGH office  success.CRT NOM The success you attain in your office   _Qinadan_ is especially a civil service job, in the Imperial   government, the most sought after kind. This sentence is sure   to grab the attention of every Charyan in the audience.  </BLOCKQUOTE>    <TT>and "office" was supposed to have been modified:</TT><TT>  "takremait office," where _takremait_ is an adjective.</TT> <TT>  You can throw out my gloss "secular."  That doesn't</TT> <TT>  give the right meaning.  The other two words do.</TT> <TT>  _uarfy ritimika_ is "you have accomplished, done,</TT> <TT>  completed." Forever.  This makes the meaning of _takremait_</TT> <TT>  much clearer.</TT><TT></TT> <TT>  And the poem and its subject clearer.</TT> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>tan kaulon nahan.ju.moi ga GEN house  go.CRT.FUT1 The great house you will go to   _Kaulon_ implies a large house, with servants and more than one   patio - the kind of place everyone wants. Most people in the city   have to content themselves with one or two small rooms in an _insula_-   like building.  </BLOCKQUOTE>     <TT>This is so interesting!  _hovikary_ has much less</TT><TT>  grandiose meaning.  But I'm learning something about</TT> <TT>  the Charyan culture.</TT> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE> e.di       ram   di    ambar.ju.moi.nai poss.2sMGH money 1sMGH collect.CRT.FUT1.PRF The riches you will have collected.   It's entirely good form to be _nouveau riche_ in Charya, indeed, it   is attainable for most people. It's easy to come by some money, and   even easier to spend it, which is the right thing to do with it.   So the sentiment expressed in this phrase readily touches the heart of   every Charyan.  </BLOCKQUOTE>     <TT>This is probably the one instance in which either you</TT><TT>  or Irina would find the poem culturally incompatible.</TT> <TT>  The _rilbet_ that is taken here is a reference to one</TT> <TT>  of our famous gospel parables.  The rest of the poem is</TT> <TT>  free of Christian reference.</TT> <TT> </TT> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>adim.dir harul p   drai.dir, boy.p    gold  and girl.p The golden boys and girls   The Charyans are known als the Haruldandir, the Golden people, on   account of their skin-colour, which is a nice golden-brown-red. This   phrase can only mean 'Charyan children', and it seems to imply   a lot of them, which, as the Charyans are not very fertile,   but like children a lot, is a good thing.  </BLOCKQUOTE>             <TT>A lovely complexion!  The Teonaht are more</TT><TT>      olive complected, but with light-colored eyes</TT> <TT>      and hair that grows whiter and whiter with</TT> <TT>      exposure to the sun.  So children are born</TT> <TT>      dark-haired and get increasingly blonder until</TT> <TT>      almost platinum in old-age.</TT> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE> ir  ronyeran.dir tan  yzi'tohas.dir getyun ga as  cleaner.p    GEN  chimney.p     take   NOM yechan dayun.ju   logh dust   become.CRT like will become like the dust chimney-sweeps take   So we needn't fear sun nor winter, but our riches, our high   office and our children will become like the dust chimney-sweeps   gather? But the office you hold you can bequeth to your children,   who can use it as a stepping stone to attain even higher office,   the money, when wisely invested, will aid the clan in gaining   prestige and security for its members, and children are the joy   of your old age. And if you lose everything, you just start again,   is what a Charyan would say.  </BLOCKQUOTE>       <TT>I like this Charyan philosophy, which is turning</TT><TT>   this grim observation about a common and dreaded</TT> <TT>   aspect of life into an optimistic philosophy.</TT> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE> II tan koruchan.dir mazir tau.arat.hau sü GEN lord.p       frown NEG.fear.IMP again Don't fear the frown of the lords again di    nele    tan nilro'kiraw ghazaw  ga 2sMGH beyond  GEN king'bad    cruelty NOM You're beyond the cruelty of bad kings; dheret p   mai     tau.luanotan.hau meal   and clothes NEG.care_about.IMP Don't care about meals and clothes tan di.di     gingtan hyet  logh GEN 2sMGH.DUP tree    grass like For you, trees and grass are the same utaima.zi p   gesen p   manushe hat.AUG   and book  and medicine Crowns, books and medicine  There exists a whole elaborate terminology as regards  head-gear (regal and otherwise), but that's a part I  haven't investigated yet, so I will try to get away  with 'big hat', here. _Manushe_ is medicine, literally  'sweet herb', because medicinal draughts are traditionally  heavily sugared to make them more palatable.  </BLOCKQUOTE> <TT>    Fascinating!  As I said in an earlier post,</TT><TT>    these terms (crown, book, caduceus) are</TT> <TT>    metonyms.  How would that change your</TT> <TT>    Chaldyan interpretation?  Of course, metonyms</TT> <TT>    and other symbols are the hardest to transfer</TT> <TT>    from one language to another.</TT> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>d      desh yiman  qoloriar.ju.ini dilogh this   all  always follow.CRT.HAB  each_other These certainly always follow upon each other and  yechan yiman  dayun.ju.ni dayun and  dust   always become.CRT.HAB And will always become dust.  </BLOCKQUOTE>         <TT>You need the sense of compulsion that is</TT><TT>    expressed in _hmai_.</TT> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE> III muanir tan  woya'perin  tau.arat.hau sü stroke GEN  heaven.fire NEG.fear.IMP again Don't fear the caress of lightning again.  </BLOCKQUOTE>          <TT>Fepre, "touch," has a more menacing quality.</TT><TT>    Tepre, "touch," can be a caress.</TT> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>  Strange, these caresses, but it's what I   got when looking around for 'stroke'. A bit of   poetic license is allowed? There are a lot of stories   in Andal about the God of Lightning, Yignis having   a good time with the Goddes of Rain, Sheshal.  </BLOCKQUOTE>         <TT>Oh, I read you!  Yes, of course.  A</TT><TT>    caress from a lightning bolt would</TT> <TT>    be fatal... poetic license indeed!</TT> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE> ma temdem   terinadar arat or thunder  noise     fear or the noise of the thunder tau  arat.hau zunga    ma tan mekinda musama.dir NEG  fear.IMP curse    or GEN scorn   scar.p Don't fear curses or the scars of scorn.   Of course, even when you're dead and gone to one of   the Nine hells, you're still quite susceptible to curses   and your children won't allow your name to be sullied,   so this is a bit of nonsense for Charyans. e.di       nezirir  p   musir   wonir.ju poss.2sMGH laughing and weeping finished.IMP Stop your laughing and weeping sheshedan.dir p   qaivan.dir tuoy  qaivan.dir suwonir.ju.ni suitors.p     and lover.p    young lover.p    give_up.CRT.HAB Suitors, young lovers and lovers are certainly giving in.  </BLOCKQUOTE>        <TT>You need the sense of _aibban_, which is</TT><TT>   unnamed in the poem, but is the subject of it.</TT> <TT>   They follow "this" --</TT> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>   Charyan doesn't distinguish between lovers and   loved ones, not even in the sense that the first   are sexual and the second not - it's just not in   the vocabulary. So, what we have here are suitors,   young lovers and lovers... Also, since the next phrase   didn't have any separate content, I've been forced to   make one Denden sentence out of two Teonaht sentences. dox yechan yiman  dayun.ini all dust   always become.HAB All allways becomes dust.  </BLOCKQUOTE> <TT>Pretty good, Boudewijn!</TT> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE> Now I'm getting curiouser and curiouser: who is the author of this little piece of verse,</BLOCKQUOTE>   <TT>I'll tell you presently! !</TT>  <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>and how far of the mark was my shot?  </BLOCKQUOTE>  <TT>  Only in those instances that I cited above, where</TT> <TT>  you turn some of the poem into a comment about Chalyan</TT> <TT>  secular life.  But hey, that's the name of the game.</TT><TT></TT> <TT>  What would Irina do with this, I wonder? <G>  Or Nik</TT> <TT>  or Pablo? Maybe Nik and Pablo are burnt out.  I mean,</TT> <TT>  they were involved while I was looking on.</TT><TT></TT> <TT>  Sally</TT>  </HTML> --------------BF74460A63E04A68B1A16851--