Re: Language change among immortals

--- In conlang@yahoogroups.com, Roger Mills <rfmilly@M...> wrote:

> kutsuwamushi wrote:
>> [snip]
>> I'm writing a pair of stories that take place five thousand years
>> apart. The people and the country are the same. The people
>> (human-like, not dragons or anything) live, on average, 1000 years.
>> [snip]
> [snip]
> .... my guess would be that there'd be probably minor changes in
> pronunciation only.
> Probably new vocab. to keep up with technological innovations.
> Some factors that might upset this conservative scheme:
> revolutions, dynastic changes, migrations ....
> [snip]
Ah heck, Roger, I should have read your post before I posted mine!
You'd already said that -- I didn't need to say it again.
(Just in case there's any question --
kutsuwamushi, I agree with Roger on this point.)

>> Could I simply use a natural language as an example, calculate the
>> generations, and scale up the number of years to fit?
> [snip]
> .... It depends on your people reproducing at a slow rate. ....
> [snip]
You mentioned the reproduction rate too!
(Once more, just so there's no question --
I agree with Roger on this point too, kutsuwamushi.)

>> Or would language change continue at a similar pace, because
>> people's language evolves continually throughout their lives, not
>> just primarily at one stage of it?
> Personally I feel it takes quite a jolt for a person's language to
> change noticeable within their lifetime. (Excluding emigration to a
> foreign country, of course.) The principal factor would be exposure
> to a dialect that is perceived as more prestigious than one's own.
OK, here I quite disagree.

(Let's leave aside, for the moment, the fuzzy question of whether
moving from Texas to Michigan counts as "emigrating to a foreign
country".)

I agree that exposure to a dialect that, in some ways and in some
circumstances, seems attractive, is either the "principal factor", or
at least the biggest one I can think of.

The thing is, "seems attractive" doesn't mean "is perceived as
prestigious" -- not even if you vary who does the "perceiving" and
what constitutes "prestige".

If I suddenly find myself having to talk over a tinny intercom a lot,
or over a staticky radio, I may find Sealane English or CB slang
becoming very attractive, and using the "military alphabet", just
because it is a very quick way to make myself clear without having to
repeat (by the way, use "say again", not "repeat").

If I suddenly find myself having to help a large number of just-
toilet-trained and almost-toilet-trained post-toddlers negotiate the
path to the bathroom, I will find it useful to adopt the vocabulary
they use, no matter what vocabulary is used in the pathology lab in
the hospital or the zoologists' office at the zoo.

It so happens that habits acquired in one environment will become the
most accessible behaviors in another environment.  When I need to ask
my daughter or my wife or my brother to repeat what they just said,
I, now, always say, "say again?".  Also, certain "linguisticsisms"
are finding their way into my daily speech now, even though I have no
friends nor family with whom I can discuss this subject by voice,
instead of in type.  And, long ago, mathematical, musical,
scientific, and cybernetic terminology and ways of seeing things --
 "sorry, my mind was paged out" -- were coming into my speech,
although I made more of an effort to think of something else if I was
sure my audience wouldn't understand.

In some cases, though, even when I know my audience won't understand,
the best course seems to be to explain it to them, rather than come
up with a different way of saying things.

----

These all apply to differences that would constitute "dialect",
rather than "accent".  I change my "accent" just to be understood.

-----

I enjoyed reading your post, Roger, even if two-thirds of it made 40%
of my previous post redundant.
:-)

Tom H.C. in MI

(and even if *these* folks call the Great Lakes "The 3rd Coast",
people from Galveston and Noo Awlins know the Gulf of Mexico is the
_real_ "3rd Coast".)

(also Michiganders think U.P. stands for Upper Peninsula;
but everyone in India knows U.P. stands for Uttar Pradesh.)

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