CHAT: Paths etc (was: CHAT:Conscripts)

Eugene Oh wrote:
> 2007/8/6, R A Brown <ray@...>:
>
>>Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
>>
>>>On 5.8.2007 John Vertical wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>(Also, why would that /s/ become dental, anyway? Isn't English /t/
>>>>alveolar?)
>>>
>>>
>>>True, I was thinking of cases like /p&Ts/
>>
>>Do you mean /pADz/    :)
>>
>>...and don't those who have /p&T/ for the singular, have /p&Dz/ for the
>>plural?
>>
>>--
>>Ray
>
>
> To be prescriptive, shouldn't the "correct" way be the former?
Nope - what prescriptivists? My dictionary gives the _voiced_
pronunciation for the plural, i.e. /Dz/

> After
> all, there's no interposing vowel that got deleted through the ages.
So what? Haven't you noticed the role *analogy* so often plays in the
diachronic development of natlangs? If not, take a good look, for
example, at the development of French from VL to Old French to the
modern language.

I've always said /pADz/ and that's certainly the normal pronunciation in
this neck of the woods (SE England) - apart, that is, from the ever
growing number who say /pAvz/    :)

I wasn't, however, 100% sure about my fellow anglophones who have /p&T/
(or /p&f/) in the singular. Hence the genuine question. It does appear
from answers on the list that both /p&Ts/ and /p&Dz/ are heard.

> 2007/8/6, Douglas Koller <laokou@...>:
>
>>/pADz/ reminds me of an episode of "The Avengers" (the Tara years), where Steed
>>shouts, "Tap dancing!" /t&p dAnsIN/. /t&p d&nsIN/, okay, or to fulfill the
>>British stereotype, /tAp dAnsIN/, but /t&p dAnsiN/ (try typing that three
>>times fast)?
>>
>>Kou
>>
>
>
> /tAp dAnsIN/?? I'm quite sure no Brit pronounces it [tAp].
Indeed not.

Though our northern brethren usually pronounce /&/ as [a]; but they do
not have /A/ in 'dance', 'path' etc. I suppose a 'Merkan hearing someone
from the north of England say "tap dancing" with [a] might mistake it as
/tAp dAnsIN/ - but we southerners would certainly understand it as a
realization of /t&p d&nsIN/.

> In fact,
> /t&p dAnsiN/ is how Brits say it.
Some - mainly in the south of England   :)
------------------------------------

Henrik Theiling wrote:
 > Hi!
 >
 > T. A. McLeay writes:
 >
 >>...
 >>(Or, by "Am I alone with this L2 pronunciation?", did you mean "are
 >>there any other L2 speakers who do this?" rather than "Or is this a
 >>marker of L2ness?".)
 >
 >
 > Since I think I modelled (and even changed) this pronunciation after
 > L1 speakers, my question was: are there any L1 speakers that do this
 > or was I misguided?  You seem to indicate the latter.

IMO you are indeed. A pronunciation like /pAs/ would be understood as
"pass," pronounced variously as /pAs/ or /p&s/ and their reflexes.
Plural after a vowel is definitely /z/.

IME /Ts/ and /Dz/ maintain their individual sounds. Those L1 anglophones
who have problems with /T/ or /D/ habitually substitute /f/ and /v/, a
pronunciation that has increased among the younger generations here in
England and Wales (not sure about Scotland) at a surprising rate over
the past 50 years.

--
Ray
==================================
ray@carolandray.plus.com
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]

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