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CHAT: Paths etc (was: CHAT:Conscripts)

From:R A Brown <ray@...>
Date:Monday, August 6, 2007, 18:23
Eugene Oh wrote:
> 2007/8/6, R A Brown <ray@...>: > >>Benct Philip Jonsson wrote: >> >>>On 5.8.2007 John Vertical wrote: >>> >>> >>>>(Also, why would that /s/ become dental, anyway? Isn't English /t/ >>>>alveolar?) >>> >>> >>>True, I was thinking of cases like /p&Ts/ >> >>Do you mean /pADz/ :) >> >>...and don't those who have /p&T/ for the singular, have /p&Dz/ for the >>plural? >> >>-- >>Ray > > > To be prescriptive, shouldn't the "correct" way be the former?
Nope - what prescriptivists? My dictionary gives the _voiced_ pronunciation for the plural, i.e. /Dz/
> After > all, there's no interposing vowel that got deleted through the ages.
So what? Haven't you noticed the role *analogy* so often plays in the diachronic development of natlangs? If not, take a good look, for example, at the development of French from VL to Old French to the modern language. I've always said /pADz/ and that's certainly the normal pronunciation in this neck of the woods (SE England) - apart, that is, from the ever growing number who say /pAvz/ :) I wasn't, however, 100% sure about my fellow anglophones who have /p&T/ (or /p&f/) in the singular. Hence the genuine question. It does appear from answers on the list that both /p&Ts/ and /p&Dz/ are heard.
> 2007/8/6, Douglas Koller <laokou@...>: > >>/pADz/ reminds me of an episode of "The Avengers" (the Tara years), where Steed >>shouts, "Tap dancing!" /t&p dAnsIN/. /t&p d&nsIN/, okay, or to fulfill the >>British stereotype, /tAp dAnsIN/, but /t&p dAnsiN/ (try typing that three >>times fast)? >> >>Kou >> > > > /tAp dAnsIN/?? I'm quite sure no Brit pronounces it [tAp].
Indeed not. Though our northern brethren usually pronounce /&/ as [a]; but they do not have /A/ in 'dance', 'path' etc. I suppose a 'Merkan hearing someone from the north of England say "tap dancing" with [a] might mistake it as /tAp dAnsIN/ - but we southerners would certainly understand it as a realization of /t&p d&nsIN/.
> In fact, > /t&p dAnsiN/ is how Brits say it.
Some - mainly in the south of England :) ------------------------------------ Henrik Theiling wrote: > Hi! > > T. A. McLeay writes: > >>... >>(Or, by "Am I alone with this L2 pronunciation?", did you mean "are >>there any other L2 speakers who do this?" rather than "Or is this a >>marker of L2ness?".) > > > Since I think I modelled (and even changed) this pronunciation after > L1 speakers, my question was: are there any L1 speakers that do this > or was I misguided? You seem to indicate the latter. IMO you are indeed. A pronunciation like /pAs/ would be understood as "pass," pronounced variously as /pAs/ or /p&s/ and their reflexes. Plural after a vowel is definitely /z/. IME /Ts/ and /Dz/ maintain their individual sounds. Those L1 anglophones who have problems with /T/ or /D/ habitually substitute /f/ and /v/, a pronunciation that has increased among the younger generations here in England and Wales (not sure about Scotland) at a surprising rate over the past 50 years. -- Ray ================================== ================================== Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu. There's none too old to learn. [WELSH PROVERB]


Mark J. Reed <markjreed@...>
Eric Christopherson <rakko@...>
Henrik Theiling <theiling@...>