CHAT: Paths etc (was: CHAT:Conscripts)
|From:||R A Brown <ray@...>|
|Date:||Monday, August 6, 2007, 18:23|
Eugene Oh wrote:
> 2007/8/6, R A Brown <ray@...>:
>>Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
>>>On 5.8.2007 John Vertical wrote:
>>>>(Also, why would that /s/ become dental, anyway? Isn't English /t/
>>>True, I was thinking of cases like /p&Ts/
>>Do you mean /pADz/ :)
>>...and don't those who have /p&T/ for the singular, have /p&Dz/ for the
> To be prescriptive, shouldn't the "correct" way be the former?
Nope - what prescriptivists? My dictionary gives the _voiced_
pronunciation for the plural, i.e. /Dz/
> all, there's no interposing vowel that got deleted through the ages.
So what? Haven't you noticed the role *analogy* so often plays in the
diachronic development of natlangs? If not, take a good look, for
example, at the development of French from VL to Old French to the
I've always said /pADz/ and that's certainly the normal pronunciation in
this neck of the woods (SE England) - apart, that is, from the ever
growing number who say /pAvz/ :)
I wasn't, however, 100% sure about my fellow anglophones who have /p&T/
(or /p&f/) in the singular. Hence the genuine question. It does appear
from answers on the list that both /p&Ts/ and /p&Dz/ are heard.
> 2007/8/6, Douglas Koller <laokou@...>:
>>/pADz/ reminds me of an episode of "The Avengers" (the Tara years), where Steed
>>shouts, "Tap dancing!" /t&p dAnsIN/. /t&p d&nsIN/, okay, or to fulfill the
>>British stereotype, /tAp dAnsIN/, but /t&p dAnsiN/ (try typing that three
> /tAp dAnsIN/?? I'm quite sure no Brit pronounces it [tAp].
Though our northern brethren usually pronounce /&/ as [a]; but they do
not have /A/ in 'dance', 'path' etc. I suppose a 'Merkan hearing someone
from the north of England say "tap dancing" with [a] might mistake it as
/tAp dAnsIN/ - but we southerners would certainly understand it as a
realization of /t&p d&nsIN/.
> In fact,
> /t&p dAnsiN/ is how Brits say it.
Some - mainly in the south of England :)
Henrik Theiling wrote:
> T. A. McLeay writes:
>>(Or, by "Am I alone with this L2 pronunciation?", did you mean "are
>>there any other L2 speakers who do this?" rather than "Or is this a
>>marker of L2ness?".)
> Since I think I modelled (and even changed) this pronunciation after
> L1 speakers, my question was: are there any L1 speakers that do this
> or was I misguided? You seem to indicate the latter.
IMO you are indeed. A pronunciation like /pAs/ would be understood as
"pass," pronounced variously as /pAs/ or /p&s/ and their reflexes.
Plural after a vowel is definitely /z/.
IME /Ts/ and /Dz/ maintain their individual sounds. Those L1 anglophones
who have problems with /T/ or /D/ habitually substitute /f/ and /v/, a
pronunciation that has increased among the younger generations here in
England and Wales (not sure about Scotland) at a surprising rate over
the past 50 years.
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.