Re: Tagalog & trigger idea: I'd like comments. :)
|From:||Kit La Touche <kit@...>|
|Date:||Wednesday, November 17, 2004, 1:57|
trying to fit TF into a natlang paradigm:
it looks like TF has a rich case system, word-order focus and no verb
voice. possibly also some sort of topic-comment structure.
as to whether it's accusative or not, what case would "boy" be in "the
boy died"? and what case would "boy" be in "the boy took a walk"? if
they have the same case, and it's the same as that of agentive-type
cases elsewhere, then it's essentially nominative. if it has the same
case as patient-type cases elsewhere, then it's essentially ergative.
if they both take different cases, then you're doing what looks like
theta-role assignment directly on verbs, or something like. i've been
told this is known from one australian language, so it's not out of the
realm of natlangs.
my remark about a topic-comment structure is an attempt to explain in
natlang-terms the difference in implied object for "kissed" in the
trigger case, as i understand it, goes something like this:
there is a case called "trigger" which some noun phrase in a sentence
will have. what theta-role is assigned to this argument is determined
by another morpheme on the verb, which says "trigger gets theta-role
my roommate spoke tagalog when he was little, but moved to the US when
young, and has subsequently lost it. grr.
On Nov 16, 2004, at 5:56 PM, H. S. Teoh wrote:
> Interesting, I didn't think of this aspect of it. But, Tatari Faran
> does not have passives. The fronted NP also takes a "nominative" role
> in a sense. This doesn't quite show in these examples because a
> relatively simple sentence is involved; but it becomes clearer if you
> tack on several clauses together:
> diru nei kira firasa sei kiran ka esan, henan dei niba' tara' ka tsum.
> "The girl was given flowers by the young man, and he kissed [her]."
> firasa sei kira kiran ka diru nei esan, henan dei niba' tara' ka tsum.
> "The flowers were given to the girl by the young man, and he kissed
> [the flowers]."
> The second clause takes the fronted NP of the first clause as its
> "subject", independent of case:
> henan dei niba' tara' ka tsum.
> CONJ RCP kiss 3sp ORG-MASC COMPL
> "And [was] kissed by him."
> The elided subject here refers to the fronted NP in the previous
> clause; hence, changing word order in the 1st clause alters the
> meaning of the 2nd.
> The point here is that there is no passive form of the verb; the
> selected "subject" in the 1st clause becomes the "subject" of the
> elided 2nd clause independently of its noun case.
> Once bitten, twice cry...