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CHAT: THEORY/CHAT: Talmy, Jackendoff and Matchboxes

From:Philippe Caquant <herodote92@...>
Date:Tuesday, April 27, 2004, 20:19
Thanks, a good idea, especially if you consider that
Talmy's books you can find on are not
especially cheap... I'll try to have a closer look.

The more I read of Jackendoff, the less I agree with
him, I'm afraid (at least with what I understand). For
ex when he analyzes the verb "to hit" (in 6.2 Verbs of
Touching) like (I snip the many brackets and similars)
Event INCH State BE Place AT
INCH meaning Inchoative, I understand this as "to
enter a state of being at some place". He gloses
"Consider what 'hit' means: motion of the Theme
culminating in contact with the reference object",
which doesn't sound bad. But "culminating" does not
mean that this is the end of the movement, it only
means that it is... well, culminating. Usually, if you
hit somebody or something, you don't keep stuck to
him/it after hitting. Why should there be an
inchoative there ? I understand that "to fall sick",
for ex, is an inchoative, but "to hit" ???

To rest a little from Jackendoff, here is a totally
different topic. I just bought a matchbox (I love
exciting experiences; hence my former example about a
matchbox as an entity), and this is what I can read on
it (after putting on my glasses):
"240 safety matches
Keep away from children
240 Allumettes de sécurité
Tenir hors de portée des enfants
240  Veiligheidslucifers
Uit de buurt houden van de kinderen
240 Fosoforo de segurança
Manter fora do alcance dc criancas [sic]
240 Cerillas de seguridad
Mantegase fuera del alcance de los niños
240 Fiammiferi di sicurezza
Tenere lontano dai bambini
240 Sicherheitszündhölzer
Von Kindern fern halten
240 varmuustulitikkuja
pidettävä poissa lasten ulottuviita
240 Säkerhetständstickor
Förvaras oatkomligt för barn
240 Sikkerhetsfyrstikker
Hold de borte fra barna
240 Sikkerhedstaendstikker
Holdes borte fra börn
240 Spirta asfaleiaz (???)
Makria apo paidia"

This all written on a surface of 4 x 5 cm, that is,
about the size of a standard stamp from Mongolia. The
matchbox is made in Czech Republic. Now wait ! That
was only 12 languages. But on the 1st of May (in three
days !) there will be 25 countries in the European
Union. So they will soon have to add Hungarian,
Estonian, Maltese and Slovak, among others
(including... Czech). And many manufacturers already
add Arabic, Russian and other non-EU language mentions
on their products. A matchbox being not indefinitely
extensible, can you imagine the result ? You will need
a microscope. Now if THIS is not an argument for
Esperanto, at least for such uses, I don't know how we
should explain it to our governments ! (Of course, the
English will say that the 1st mention, "240 safety
matches..." was quite enough. But English are a
minority in the EU). Another possibility would be to
use pictograms, of course. Anyway, this is all very
ridiculous, except for linguists who will with delight
read EVERY mention, and detect the (probably many)
mistakes printed in different languages.

--- Tim May <butsuri@...> wrote:
> Philippe Caquant wrote at 2004-04-25 02:04:13 > (-0700) > [...] > > > least refused to consider, this ? Especially if > you consider > > another example he gives further in ch.5.2, about > Spanish: > > (5) La botella floto a la cueva (the bottle > floated to the cave) > > which he comments: > > "The translations must rather include both a verb > of external > > motion (GO) and a participle expressing manner of > motion (MOVE): > > (6) La botella entro a la cueva flotando > The > bottle moved-in to > > the cave floating. > > > > This is very exactly what I thought when I read > his passage about > > "to run" ! "To float" and "to float into" are two > different > > concepts, the secund one being a compound of the > first one ! Just > > like "to run" and "to run toward" for ex. > > This kind of example (the difference between English > "The bottle > floated into the cave" and Spanish "La botella entro > a la cueva > flotando") is important in the typological work of > Talmy (this is just > about the only thing I know about Talmy, actually). > You can read a > summary of his typology here: ===== Philippe Caquant "High thoughts must have high language." (Aristophanes, Frogs) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs


And Rosta <a.rosta@...>EU allumettes (was: Re: THEORY/CHAT: Talmy, Jackendoff and Matchboxes
Jean-François Colson <fa597525@...>