Re: Relexes Pt. 1: Defence

--- Estel Telcontar skrzypszy:

> First, a definition, though I'm sure most people here don't really need
> one:
> A relex, or in full relexification, is a conlang in which the words of
> an existing language are replaced by different ones, and the syntax
> (and semantics, I think) of the original language are retained.  The
> process of creating such a language is also called relexification.
I think the definition is perfect, except for the words "I think". ;))

<--- snip --->
> At the very least, I think that stealthlangs are a legitimate subclass
> of conlangs, and one where relexification is a legitimate process, not
> to be looked down on.
Of course. But here's a question: are you saying that in your opinion
stealthlangs are the ONLY subclass of conlangs were relexification is a
legitimate process?

> In fact, many things that we call "language games", such as Pig Latin
> or Opish, are essentially stealthlangs produced by a systematic,
> predictable relexification of a natlang, English in these two cases.
Very likely, but not automatically. I would say that the term "stealthlang"
should refer exclusively to the purpose of a language, while the kind of
relexification these languages use (other examples: Ubbi-Dubbi, Paulish) is
rather a matter of its design principles.

***********************************

--- Costentin Cornomorus skrzypszy:

> > Relexes are usually given little respect on this list, mainly, I think,
> > because they are often naive attempts to create a different language
> > done without an awareness that languages differ in more than lexicon.
>
> Sure. It's like taking a well known violin
> melody, changing all the Cs to Gs, transposing it
> and playing it on an oboe. And while playing
> anything on an oboe is the worst class of
> travesty,
I beg your pardon?!

> everything that is essential to the
> melody is unchanged. Only some superficialities
> are altered.
Well, to stay within the same metaphore: that depends entirely one the kind
of melody! Some melodies are idiomatic, others aren't. Playing a Paganini
show piece for solo-violin on an oboe would be ridiculous indeed, but there
are plenty of melodies that can well be sung as well as played on any
instrument (which is the case for most pre-Baroque music and a good lot of
Baroque music, too).

> > There is one purpose for conlangs that isn't
> > often discussed, which is secret
> > communication.
>
> It's been a while since we talked about that, for
> sure. I haven't, but rather a few of us have made
> either languages for secret communications with
> another person, or else a secret diary language.
Neither have I, mostly because I'm not particularly secretive about
anything. But yes, I vaguely recall several of our languages started their
existence as stealth languages.

> > Languages designed for secret communication are
> > a legitimate subclass of conlangs; as far as I
> > know, they don't have a short name, but one might dub them
> > "stealthlangs".
>
> I like it!
Me too, but note that the term is not new: Jeffrey Henning already uses it
in his classification at Langmaker.com.

> > At the very least, I think that stealthlangs
> > are a legitimate subclass
> > of conlangs, and one where relexification is a
> > legitimate process, not to be looked down on.
>
> I don't think you'll find disagreement on this
> very specific point.
Indeed, not from me!

> Relexes only become disparaged when we "know
> better" and should be doing more than just aping
> our mother tongue in that way. In broader
> settings of art or fantasy and sci-fi literature;
> they really have no place.
Ahem, ahem! Has it escaped your attention that Wenedyk is - at least
partly - a relex too? Of course, not a relex of the kind you describe
(aping your mother tongue because you don't know any better), but
nevertheless it has some elements in common with it.
Now, Wenedyk is definitely nót a stealth language; one of its design
principles is the question: what would Polish look like if it were a
Romance language?
I think it is inevitable that such language becomes a relex to some degree.
Concretely, I try to achieve a 1:1 correspondence between Wenedyk and
Polish words (which does not always work out, because Vulgar Latin and
Common Slavic are not exactly the same kind of language). Furthermore, I
adopt many features from Polish grammar (in particular those that Polish
developed independently). And most of Wenedyk's syntax and peculariaties
are taken straightly from Polish. Of course, there are differences too, for
example the fact that Polish has 6 1/2 cases, and Wenedyk only 4 1/4.
In other words, Wenedyk is what I would call an "educated relex", or
perhaps a "sophisticated relex". I'm curious in how far the same applies
for other languages of the same family (like Brithenig).

> If you're going to
> create a complex alien civilisation, it's simply
> inane to make them speak English with funny
> sounding words.
Of course. But wouldn't it be equally stupid to make them speak German with
funny sounding words? Or Finnish? Welsh? Japanese? Swahili? Is "English"
or "mother tongue" really the key word here?

Jan

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