Re: very confused - syntax question

J.Barefoot wrote:

>
> the problem is "they won the prize". Only a transitive verb can be inflected
> for person; intransitive must have a free pronoun.
But isn't "won" transitive?  I don't quite see the problem.  "I win," "I
win
an award."  Transitive.  Do you mean that in putting "win" into the
middle
voice it loses transitivity?

 And by typing it out, I
> have come to a clarification: How can "they" be understood as the originator
> of the action when it fills the object position in the sentence? Should I
> make a rule that the verb is inflected for semantic agent instead of
> grammatical subject and that "transitivity" as it applies to verb inflection
> is to be defined in terms of semantics and not necessarily what is
> grammatically marked  in the sentence? Kinda seems like a cop-out...but
> maybe that is it.  I think Kristian's got the right idea; I think I'll go to
> bed and have a nice long chat with my informant.
So you want "they" to reflect the case of its antecedant in the main
clause?
What did you think of my suggestion that you cast it something like
this?
        ...with my two brothers na to them is the prize won...
which is what I think you're trying to do by 1) maintaining the object
case
in "they" and 2) the middle voice in "win."  If you think of it this way
then you don't violate your rules, you don't have to make any semantic
exceptions, and your breakdown, below, is fine.  The problem (for me) is
only in your translation.  It helps to translate absolutely literally
and
not make "win" a transitive in English when you're talking about it as
intransitive in your conlang.  Do you see?  So the following is right,
but your translation--while it ultimately means what it does in
English--
confuses me because in the active voice it definitely is a transitive!

> > > ta rusa-k@-mi siu na a-kanyase ko kanyan-al-ena inya kah
> > > with brother-pl-my two that the-prize TOP.past
> >won-middle-they.resumptive
> > > they.resumptive BEN
> > > with my two brothers who won the prize
or more literally: with my two brothers such that the prize was won to
them

> Maybe that's right after all.
It seems fine to me!

> Maybe I need someone who knows syntax to step
> in and tell me I'm wrong.  (Oh, c'mon, that's asking for it. Don't be shy
> now. ;-))
Who can tell you that the syntax you've devised is wrong?  If those are
the
terms of your language, and you've defined them clearly, then you are
right!

>
> Thank you for all the helpful comments so far, Sally and Irina.
Don't mention it!  This sounds like an interesting language!
Sally