Re: Attributive Nominal Forms and Syntax in a lang experiment

Elliott Lash wrote:

>While sitting around in class today, I started
>doodling about, creating a few vocab items and simple
>sentences. The main "strange" feature in this
>experiment seems to be the 'pre-attributive' form of
>the noun. This form seems to be used before something
>that describes it, whether an adjective, a possessive,
>or a relative clause.
This sounds like a logical extension of the "construct case". In a
discussion here about a year back (maybe more) somebody called it
the "antigenitive". What you've done is extended this form from marking
only "thing possessed" to "thing modified" as well.

>does any of this make sense so far? or should i
>explain better. If i have done well explaining...does
>this feature show up in any other languages?
It makes a lot of sense, though it seems odd to me that possessives use
this form only in "the X is mine" and not "my X", where adjectives take it
in both instances. But your language treats possessives differently from
adjectives (possessives come before the noun, adjectives come after) which
could be a reason for that.
I'd like to see how this system handles genitives (are they different from
the possessive pronouns?) to compare "my bird" with say "Elliott's bird"
and "this bird is Elliott's": |ne ...? yishi/yishwe ...?|

As for other languages, this form does exist in a language of mine called
Tolborese, which started as an experiment to make a syntax as "tangled" as
possible by marking all kinds of words for relationships to other words. In
Tolborese, though, the construct case, the 'pre-adjective' and the 'pre-
relative' all have different forms: -i, -a, and -u, respectively. However,
I think pre-adjective and pre-relative may collapse into one form.

I'll use your examples plus a couple of my own. Here, CL- refers to noun
class prefixes; that's another matter, so just ignore them.

>Adjective Phrases:
>dzhin dwo
>your  father
deseli bunkèng
desel-i bu-n-kèng
father-CONS CL-GEN-you

>gi    dyu          beng
>my   father+attr  dear
deseli bumbula buhovol
desel-i bu-m-bul-a bu-hovol
father-CONS CL-GEN-me-A CL-dear

** Notice that the pre-adjective -a attaches to the end of the whole phrase
|deseli bumbul| rather than "stacking" both suffixes on the noun.

>dzhin bwa:   your mother
babi bunkèng
ba(p)-i bu-n-kèng
mother-CONS CL-GEN-you

>gi byo beng: my dear mother
babi bunkènga buhovol
ba(p)i bu-n-kèng-a bu-hovol
mother-CONS CL-GEN-you-A CL-dear

>Possessive Phrases:
>(shi)   ne   yishi gi
>(exist) this  bird  my/mine
>This bird is mine
vuluda zirèsh kang zimbul
vulu(t)-a zi-resh kang zi-m-bul
bird-A CL-this be CL-GEN-me

>Relative Clauses:
I'm going to use my own example here. The relative pronoun is |nang|,
which in the relative clause always remains in the place that applies
to the modified noun. Note the OVS (really AVE) order.

"the man killed a bird"
vulut jasolok tul
bird PAST:kill (ERG)man

"the man WHO killed a bird"
tulu zivulut jasolok aanang
tul-u zi-vulut jasolok aa-nang
man-U CL-bird PAST:kill ERG-REL

"the bird THAT the man killed"
vuludu zinang jasolok tul
vulu(t)-u zi-nang jasolok tul
bird-U CL-REL PAST:kill (ERG)man

Another bizarre thing about Tolborese's "pre-attributive" forms is that
they can appear on their own. |vuludi| standing on its own
means "somebody's bird". Even the adjective suffix can appear on a noun
alone if it refers back to something that was modified earlier.

-i:

"a man killed my bird"
Vuludi zimbul jasoolok tul
vulu(t)-i zi-m-bul jasoolok tul
bird-CONS CL-GEN-me PAST:kill man

"That's the man who killed my bird!"
Resh kang tulu zivuludi jasoolok aanang!
resh kang tul-u zi-vulu(t)-i jasoolok aa-nang
that be man-U CL-bird-CONS PAST:kill ERG-REL

-a:

"That's a big car."
Resh kang soshaba mabar.
that be car-A CL-big

"Did you see the car?"
Soshaba semim maa?
car-A PAST:see QU

The general rule in Tolborese is that when a noun appears with one of these
suffixes, it tends to (but doesn't have to) show up in the same form when
it is mentioned again, even when it stands alone.

M