Hello, Remi, Max, and Henrik. Thanks for writing.
--- In conlang@yahoogroups.com, Remi Villatel <maxilys@T...> wrote:
> Hi there,
> Tom who is apparently full of good idea started this thread in june:
Well, full of ideas, anyway; or at least full of /something/.
A2=ind0506d&L=conlang&F=&S=&P=5937
> I let the thread slowly stew in the back of my mind and here is
what I got:
By the way, later in that thread you'll see people recommended
Greville G. Corbett's book "Number" to me. I can now recommend it to
you; it discusses some of these questions with great clarity.
> /The teachers gave one book to the students./
> How many books were given? Well, it depends on what the two "the"
represent.
> That's why I decided to split the plural and the dual of
Shaquelingua in
> two. Now, Shaquelingua has a collective plural and a distributive
plural
> --as well as collective and distributive dual.
> Collective plural represents "all of the".
> Distributive plural represents "each/every of the"
> /The:COLL teachers gave one book to the:COLL students./
Nice. Marking the "determiner" (or "article") -- a newish idea, to
me -- rather than either the verb or the noun (strategies I mentioned
in that post you referred to.)
> Only one book is given in this case.
> /The:DSTR teachers gave one book to the:COLL students./
> The number of books depends on the number of teachers and the
students
> have to share the books amongst themselves.
> /The:COLL teachers gave one book to the:DSTR students./
> In this case, the teachers gathered books in order that each
student
> gets one book. The number of book is equal to the number of
students.
> /The:DSTR teachers gave one book to the:DSTR students./
> Here, the number of books is equal to the number of teachers
multiplied
> by the number of students. Each student received one book from each
teacher.
> One funny thing arising from my system is that the english
expression
> "all of the" must sometimes be translated into a distributive
plural.
> /The:DSTR shaquean couples usually have 2:COLL children./
> = All the shaquean couples usually have 2 children.
> A collective plural on "the couples" would change the meaning of
the
> sentence into: "All the couples have giant planetary parties all
> together where usually only 2 children are collectively conceived."
> Shocking! ;-)
More impressive than shocking. The birth-control technology
routinely available at Shaquiean orgies would have to be pretty durn
good for this reading to be true.
(OK, I got the joke, I can smile too. :-) )
> /The:DSTR Shaqueans have already gone in space at least once./
> = All the Shaqueans have already gone in space at least once.
> A collective plural on "the Shaqueans" would mean they already left
> several times their planet all together so that there was no
Shaquean
> left on it. Strange migratory birds! ;-)
> Well, that was only for the funny pictures because, of course, the
> distributive aspect applies to space and to time.
> The usual questions: Wat d'ya think? ANADEW?
Corbett discusses "collective" vs "distributive".
Just the sheer distinction is, of course, grammaticised in several
natlangs.
I don't have a copy of his book anymore, so I can't say how much of
your proposal is ANADEW and how much isn't.
> Google isn't very talkative about "collective plural" and even less
> about "distributive plural" to which it seems to prefer the
> "non-distributive plural". <g>
> So far, I haven't found anything as simple as the shaquean
quantifiers.
> indefinite:
> COLL:DU z(#) a couple/pair of
> DSTR:DU s(#) each of two
> COLL:PL r(#) all of several
> DSTR:PL g(#) each of several
> definite:
> COLL:DU tx(#) the couple/pair of
> DSTR:DU kx(#) each of the two
> COLL:PL vr(#) all the
> DSTR:PL kv(#) each of the
> Where (#) represents the case marking.
Looks really, really nice.
The kind of thing I'd want to "steal",
if it were stealing from a natlang.
> (Note: There should be a macron instead of an umlaut herebelow.)
> /ze çyä jishso kva tiyö çakesëf./
> [ze: CH3 jiz.so kv)a: tiwO CakesEf]
> ze çyä jishso kva tiyö çakesëf
> INDEF.COLL.DU DOTA child DEF.DSTR.PL IND:ATMP shaquean
> = All the Shaqueans usually have two children.
> /fäje çyä loöku kxa tiyö taiku./
> [f3je: CH3 4o"Oku kC)a: tiwO ta"iku]
> fäje çyä loöku kxa tiyö taiku
> NUM.one DOTA descendant DEF.DSTR.DU IND:ATMP parent
> = Each of the two parents usually has only one child.
Nice site.
> Do not wander in the rest of the site which is outdated.)
Just because it's "outdated" doesn't mean it doesn't have some
interesting ideas!
Some of my most productive "wonders", when I was a maths grad student,
came from finding errors (usually misprints) in
big-name-mathematicians' big-name-books and wondering,
"but what /is/ true that might lead them to think /that/ was true?"
Some artists, especially here in SouthEast Michigan, get some of
their best ideas from junkyards.
----------
I understood about the difference between
"each of ..." and "some of ..." DISTR plurals.
But you might want to make it clearer to the user of the language
how that distinction is marked in Shaquiean.
-----
Thanks for writing.