Re: A Franco-Turkic a posteriori language

On Sunday, January 9, 2005, at 09:18 , Isaac Penzev wrote:

> Geoff Horswood wrote:
>
>
>> So I'm going to try to create an a posteriori language (something new and
>> different for me- all my previous languages have been a priori) which is
>> basically Old French with substantial Turkic influences, like vowel
> harmony
>> for a start, probably some vocabulary, and who knows?
>
> Hi Geoff,
> I find your idea great. I wonder why ppl are silent in commenting it.
Distracted with an OT thread   ;)

> I'll try to find more time in next few days to make my suggestions. For
> now,
> I think borrowing vowel harmony is highly improbable.
Why? It certainly happened in Greek dialects (probably now all extinct -
but surviving till early 20th cent.) spoken in Anatolia.

I understand Geoff's Franco-Turkic language will be situated in an area
where Turkish is still spoken. The actual Greek examples show that it is
very likely vowel harmony would have been borrowed.

Sorry, Geoff, to be slow in responding.
On Saturday, January 8, 2005, at 02:46 , Geoff Horswood wrote:
[snip]
> So I'm going to try to create an a posteriori language (something new and
> different for me- all my previous languages have been a priori) which is
> basically Old French with substantial Turkic influences, like vowel
> harmony
> for a start, probably some vocabulary, and who knows?
>
> How are the two languages likely to blend?
If it is basically Old French with substantial Turkic influence, then the
actual examples of Turkic influenced Greek give examples of what might
occur.

> Will the resulting mix be
> mostly IE or mostly Turkic in its grammar?
They were mostly Greek in grammar, but did adopt vowel harmony. Indeed,
the Greek dialects of Silli & Cappadocia had the quadrangular eight-vowel
system of Turkish. Vowel harmony affected particularly the verb endings.
My understanding is that there were, for example, two sets of endings for
the present active:
- with front vowels: /o/. /as/, /a/, /um1/, /at1/, /us1/
- with back vowels: /ew/, /es/, /e/, /ymi/, /eti/, /ySi/

French still has a rich _written_ battery of verb endings; in Old French
they were all pronounced & subject pronouns were not needed. I imagine the
system would have survived & become subject to vowel harmony. I imagine
the four conjugations that Old French inherited from Vulgar Latin (-er,
-oir, -re, -ir) would have undergone considerable re-formation as vowel
harmony set in   :)

(I wish i had thought of this first  :)

The silencing of final consonants, which became typical of later French,
would not then have happened. That would have had profound influence on
the use of articles. Indeed, we find a significant reduction in the use of
the definite article in the Greek dialects, with the article being
confined in many cases simply to definite direct objects. There would
certainly have been no impetus to develop the partitive article of modern
French.

We also find some influence in syntax - genitive constructions on the
Turkish model. One reference I have says the pluperfect was remodelled
after the Turkish fashion, but gives no details.

AFAIK the most extensive descriptions of the Anatolian Greek dialects were
given by R.M Dawkins in the "Journal of Hellenic Studies' XXX (1930),
pages 109 sqq. & 267 sqq., and in his book "Modern Greek in Asia Minor"
(Cambridge [UK], 1916).

> What about vocabulary?
> I think it's easier and more common for a language to absorb vocabulary
> than grammar,
There is quite a substantial borrowing of Turkish words in modern Greek -
so, yes, it is certainly easier to borrow vocab - just think of all the
vocabulary we have borrowed from Old French!

> but would the language be the crusaders' Old French lingua
> franca modified by Turkish, or the native conquered peoples' Turkic or
> Arabic language modified by Old French?
Who knows? But I think the latter is less likely in that if the Turkic or
Arabic element were dominant it would more like lead to the demise of any
French speaking enclaves. If Old French survived it would IMO be more
likely if it were dominant in some area or areas; therefore I think your
suggestion of "basically Old French with substantial Turkic influences" is
more likely.

Good luck!

Ray
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Anything is possible in the fabulous Celtic twilight,
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as of the reason."      [JRRT, "English and Welsh" ]

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