Re: A C-a grammar question

On Thursday, June 9, 2005, at 05:10 , Joseph Bridwell wrote:

>> «Echa, esti junu fapu grandu pera undrari junu
>> cadoligu ils cunxueduñis djils huidelis.» dichid al
>> chimpeda.
>> Do you think the addition of "to" marking the clause
>> boundary makes thing clearer, more confused or just
>> silly?
>
> For me: neither, nor, nor
Same here - in the case of the second 'nor', I don't see what is silly
about the juxtaposition of the two NPs in the first place; there are many
natlangs that are quite happy with that.

> - though it does emphasis the idea
> that /undrari/ doesn't directly affect /ils cunxueduñis/.
Yep - obviously Adam has to decide whether the object of _undrari_ is
direct or indirect. But I assumed he had already decided _undrari_ would
take a direct object just 'to honor' does in English or indeed _honorare_
does in Latin. I understood Adam to mean that if two NPs, one being the
subject & the other the direct object, shall I use "to" to mark the object.
  My answer is "no".

This appears to be a VSO language and word-order combined with common
sense should this clear. But what I think does need consideration is
whether the subject & object of an _infinitive_ should be treated the same
way as the subject & object of a finite verb.

In English we must of course use the gerund, and not the infinitive, after
a preposition, and the subject of the gerund is possessive, thus: for a
catholic's honoring the customs.....

Welsh, which is a VSO language, often marks the _subject_ of the verbnoun
(approx. = infinitive) with _i_ (to) and puts this between the preposition
and the verbnoun, thus:
   er_mwyn        i     gatholig anrhydeddu'r arferion ....
for-the-sake-of to [a] catholic to-honor   the customs ....
{note: 'er mwyn' is a complex preposition]

Classical Latin would also have 'a catholic' as dative (to a catholic),
but as the verb is transitive the _gerundive_ (and not a gerund or
infinvitive) would be used. The gerundive is a passive verbal adjective
and 'customs' would the object of the preposition (ad) corresponding to
Carrajena 'pera' and Welsh 'er mwyn', thus:
ad  consuetudines   .... catholico      honorandas
for customs-ACC.PL  .... catholic-DAT.S honor-GERUNDIVE.ACC.PL

So maybe it is the subject of the infinitive that ought to be marked
rather than the object  :)

Ray
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"A mind which thinks at its own expense will always
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