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Re: A C-a grammar question

From:Ray Brown <ray.brown@...>
Date:Thursday, June 9, 2005, 17:39
On Thursday, June 9, 2005, at 05:10 , Joseph Bridwell wrote:

>> «Echa, esti junu fapu grandu pera undrari junu >> cadoligu ils cunxueduñis djils huidelis.» dichid al >> chimpeda. >> Do you think the addition of "to" marking the clause >> boundary makes thing clearer, more confused or just >> silly? > > For me: neither, nor, nor
Same here - in the case of the second 'nor', I don't see what is silly about the juxtaposition of the two NPs in the first place; there are many natlangs that are quite happy with that.
> - though it does emphasis the idea > that /undrari/ doesn't directly affect /ils cunxueduñis/.
Yep - obviously Adam has to decide whether the object of _undrari_ is direct or indirect. But I assumed he had already decided _undrari_ would take a direct object just 'to honor' does in English or indeed _honorare_ does in Latin. I understood Adam to mean that if two NPs, one being the subject & the other the direct object, shall I use "to" to mark the object. My answer is "no". This appears to be a VSO language and word-order combined with common sense should this clear. But what I think does need consideration is whether the subject & object of an _infinitive_ should be treated the same way as the subject & object of a finite verb. In English we must of course use the gerund, and not the infinitive, after a preposition, and the subject of the gerund is possessive, thus: for a catholic's honoring the customs..... Welsh, which is a VSO language, often marks the _subject_ of the verbnoun (approx. = infinitive) with _i_ (to) and puts this between the preposition and the verbnoun, thus: er_mwyn i gatholig anrhydeddu'r arferion .... for-the-sake-of to [a] catholic to-honor the customs .... {note: 'er mwyn' is a complex preposition] Classical Latin would also have 'a catholic' as dative (to a catholic), but as the verb is transitive the _gerundive_ (and not a gerund or infinvitive) would be used. The gerundive is a passive verbal adjective and 'customs' would the object of the preposition (ad) corresponding to Carrajena 'pera' and Welsh 'er mwyn', thus: ad consuetudines .... catholico honorandas for customs-ACC.PL .... catholic-DAT.S honor-GERUNDIVE.ACC.PL So maybe it is the subject of the infinitive that ought to be marked rather than the object :) Ray =============================================== http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown ray.brown@freeuk.com =============================================== "A mind which thinks at its own expense will always interfere with language." J.G. Hamann, 1760

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Adam Walker <carrajena@...>