Re: Pronunciation of Japanese "j"

At 17:45 6.12.2003, Andreas Johansson wrote:
>Quoting Benct Philip Jonsson <bpj@...>:
>
> > At 10:08 5.12.2003, Andreas Johansson wrote:
> >
> > >Quoting Benct Philip Jonsson <bpj@...>:
> > >
> > > > Mind you, Andreas, that Swedish _tj_ is alveopalatal [s\]
> > > > rather than dorsopalatal [C].  Try comparing the way a
> > > > German says _Chemie_ with the way you say _kemi_!
> > >
> > >Let's do a YASDT, shall we? Near as I can tell, I've got [S] for /C/.
> >
> > Are you from Finland? :)
>
>Born in Lidingö, grown up on Gotland, in Stenungsund and Linköping, currently
>resident in Aachen.
I for my part was born in an ambulance on the
motorway between Kungälv and Gothenburg (i.e.
somewhere on Hisingen Island), grew up on Orust
and in Gothenburg, learning and unlearning German
as my mother's L1, and am currently residing in
Gothenburg.  We might have unwittingly met in
Stenungssund at some time! :)

>But unless my memory is failing me completely, finlandssvenska tends to [S]
>for /S/ and [C] for /C/?
AFAIK they have [s\] and [ts\] respectively,
which makes it kind of weird from a Rikssvenska
perspective.

>(To any foreigner think that seems like a reasonable
>pronuncation, I assure you it's not!)
Rather it is the traditional IPA notation which
is unreasonable.  I have for a long time used
/x/, and recently switched to /s\/.  Damn the
Norrlanders with their [S] for /x/.


>BTW, since you seems to be well-informed on Swedish dialects, could you
>comment on a claim I heard a while ago that there are Lapplandish varieties
>that merge /S/, /C/ and /rs/ as [S]?
That merger is pretty common in Norway, so it might well
occur in (Northern*) Swedish as well.

*Note to furriners: the North comprises half of Sweden,
Central Sweden a third of the rest, and the South a little
less than the southernmost sixth.  What's in between is
divided between West Gautic and East Gautic dialects.
My dialects are both West Gautic-Norwegian border dialects
while Andreas' is probably Central with some influences
from Gautic.
>                                                        Andreas
At 18:03 6.12.2003, Andreas Johansson wrote:
>Quoting Benct Philip Jonsson <bpj@...>:
>
> > To: Constructed Languages List <CONLANG@...>,
> > CONLANG@LISTSERV.BROWN.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Pronunciation of Japanese "j"
> >
> > At 12:48 5.12.2003, John Cowan wrote:
> >
> > >[s\] and [C] are awfully close in my articulation: about the only
> > >difference is that the tongue tip is behind the lower teeth in [s\],
> > >whereas in [C] it's retracted just a bit.  About like the difference
> > >between [t_d] and [t], really.
> >
> > Yes, in [s\] the tip of the tongue (it should be spelled _tung_! :)
> > is behond the lower teeth or lower gum, but in [C] the tip of the
> > tung (I told you! :) is actually covering the edges of the lower
> > teeth, which prevents the creation of hissy turbulence when the air
> > passes over the edges of the lower teeth.
>
>Niftily, your description of [s\] is frikken identical to how one of my German
>teachers described [C], which means I'm probably using it for German /C/.
Not unlikely, if you are referring to your Swédish
German teachers.  Anyway the distinction is not
crucial when speaking Swedish or German, although it
would in Japanese (and take care not to use [z\] for
/j/ if you ever learn Polish!)

>Anyone deeper into German phonetics than me care to comment?
>
>[snip]
> > At 10:08 5.12.2003, Andreas Johansson wrote:
> >
> > >Quoting Benct Philip Jonsson <bpj@...>:
> > >
> > > > Mind you, Andreas, that Swedish _tj_ is alveopalatal [s\]
> > > > rather than dorsopalatal [C].  Try comparing the way a
> > > > German says _Chemie_ with the way you say _kemi_!
> > >
> > >Let's do a YASDT, shall we? Near as I can tell, I've got [S] for /C/.
> >
> > Are you from Finland? :)  Actually it does not surprise me at all
> > if your _sj_ is [x], but don't you distinguish _rs_ and _tj_?
> > If your _tj_ is really [S] the latter distinction must be minimal
> > indeed, or perhaps it is the _s_/_rs_ distinction you lack?
> > I surely lack it most of the time!
>
>I do /S/=[x], /C/=[S], /rs/=[s`], /s/=[s_d], assuming I've got the IPA/CXS
>arightly for these. Four different sounds, at any rate.
I thought so, but if you réally have /C/=[S], /rs/=[s`]
the distinction is razor thin!


>Merging /s/ and /rs/ sounds markedly Gothenburgian to my ears ...
To my too.  Mind you Orustebus ["o8s`t`3\bu\:s] does
definitely nòt merge retroflex and dental.  It even
has retroflexes in places where Central Swedish does not,
since a labial or dental intervening between the *r
and dental doesn't block retroflexation, so you get
[vQmt`] and [m3\t`:] for _varmt, mörkt_, but I came
to Gbg early enough to have to adapt (as my dad never
did!)

>Merging /C/ and /rs/ would cause minimal trouble, since the former tends to be
>found in syllable-initial position and the later in syllable-final, but I for
>one is not doing it.
      ^^
Surely you mean _am not doing it_?

Actually some Gbg kids merge /rs/ with /x/ when trying
to posh up their 'lect, leading to pronounciations
like ["bruxa] for 'brother'!.
>                                                          Andreas

/BP 8^)
--
B.Philip Jonsson mailto:melrochX@melroch.se (delete X)
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