Re: CHAT: affricates/grammar help/intransitivity/free word order

On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 08:29:39 +0100, Philip Newton <philip.newton@...>
wrote:

>On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 22:10:44 +0100, Steven Williams <feurieaux@...>
wrote:
>> What about 'Pferd' and 'Pfeil', for two examples? I've
>> clearly heard them pronounced with an initial [pf],
>> though that may be reduced to [f] in informal
>> environments.
>
>*nods* Word-initial /pf)/ is [f] for me in informal speech --
>everywhere, I believe. Hence the saying "Ein Pferd heißt 'Pferd', weil
>man darauf fährt", since "Pferd" and "fährt" are homophonous for me.
Yes, that's a good example.

>Using [pf] in that position is a mark of careful speech for me. (But I
>don't claim to speak standard German, merely a dialect that's
>conveniently close to standard German that I don't usually bother to
>eliminate the dialect-specific bits of it; another example is my
>turning morpheme final |g| into /x/ -- i.e. [C] or [x] -- as in "weg"
>[vEC], "Weg" [ve:C], "Flugzeug" [fluxts)oYC].)
Same here :)
Morpheme final g turns into /x/ most times, but can also turn into /C/ in a
few cases. You already gave some good examples there, more would be: Tag
/tax/, Krug /kRux/, Krieg /kRi:C/ ...
Something I noticed when my grandfather was visiting recently was that he
turned the g into /x/ exclusively and never into /C/, so he would say: Weg
/wex/, Flugzeug /fluxts)oYx/, Krieg /kri:x/ etc.

>> Incidentally, what's with the extreme poverty of
>> initial [x] in standard German? The only word I can
>> think of is 'Chaos', which can either be [xa.os] or
>> [ka.os], the latter pronunciation seeming to be the
>> more common.
>
>TTBOMK, [k] is the only "correct" pronunciation in Standard German. I
>believe that Swiss German has word-initial [x], though. (OTOH,
>"Chemie" and "China" have [C] by standard German standards, though
>some pronounce them with [k] -- and others with [S].)
It's generally /C/ here, but I've already heard it as /x/ many times, i.e.
/xemi:/ und /xina/. My old Chemistry teacher in High schol some time back
pronounced all ch like /x/, so he would also say /xemi:/.

>I think "Chuzpe" (chutzpah) has [x], but that's a loanword.
Yes, I'm quite positive that it is /x/.


On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 16:29:13 +0100, Andreas Johansson <andjo@...> wrote:

>Quoting "Pascal A. Kramm" <pkramm@...>:
>
>> >German has the labiodental affricate [pf]
>>
>> Yes, but only in the middle of the word or at the end. Word-initial it is
>> "f".
>
>Many varieties, yes. Duden German, no.
Duden German != spoken German in most areas. Not in all, but at least in a
lot of cases, so you're better off not taking it as a guideline for anything.
In essence, the Duden is quite useful to stop a desk or chair from wobbling,
but it's very unsuitable to make qualitative statements about the actually
spoken German.

--
Pascal A. Kramm, author of:
Chatiga: http://www.choton.org/chatiga/
Choton: http://www.choton.org
Ichwara Prana: http://www.choton.org/ichwara/
Skälansk: http://www.choton.org/sk/
Advanced English: http://www.choton.org/ae/

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