Re: A saga for translation

Oops!  I didn't see this before I made my last reply!

FFlores wrote:
>=20
> Sally Caves <scaves@...> wrote:
> > but I'm stalled on the partitive particle, which
> > you tell us to ignore.  How can we ignore it?  It
> > links concepts in obviously important ways.
>=20
> Sorry! I clarify below.
> Now let me correct some of your translations
> if you don't mind...
>=20
> > > Smasin au getnit on fika,
> > > g=E4mb b=FCrthon famp g=E9ntsimek.
>=20
> > Beyond the stern of my ship, all the roots
> > Dry up, they all let go now.
>=20
> These are verbless:
> "Beyond the stern (are) all roots,
> dry (are) all of them, now they are gone"
I had thought of that, since T. is zero-copula as well,
and discarded it for I can't remember what reason!
=20
> _g=E4mb_ is the short participle of _g=E4mban_
> "to be dry", so it can mean "dry" or "drying".
> As you see, modifiers precede heads (except
> for subordinate clauses).
>=20
> There are several participles for each verb.
> An example with _g=E4mban_:
>=20
> Short participle: _g=E4mb_ "dry, drying" (middle or active)
> Active participle: _g=E4mbal_ "dry, being dry"
> Long active pple: _g=E4mb=E0n_ "drying" (more adverbial than adj.)
> Passive participle: _g=E4'mbantan_ "dried"
>=20
> > > Smasin au getnit prant padhanth,
> > > lostel b=FCrthon, qek k=E4s? qek i untur?
> > > A funin famp farqololimb olusst!
> > > Qreven t=F6m=F6n i =E4lan l=E1dhasuit.
> > > N=FCs sian =EDdanhadh i gal i stef
> > > nots=FCr not=FCr qualbl=FAilotaqeik ke?
> >
> > Beyond the boat's stern (are) many waves;
> > They are cold; are they friends? foes?
> > Oh, no longer will the rivers be drunk from.
> > I know that by force I will have the dewdrops
> > (and here I can't follow you at all.  PRT
> > seems essential to the meaning of the poem,
> > and yet you counsel us to "ignore it.")
> > I know that by force or I will force the dewdrops
> > into our hands PRT gold, PRT steel,
> > Will we be dropped sometime?
>=20
> I understand your confusion. More or less that
> could be:
>=20
> "... are they friends? are they foes?
> "Oh, rivers that won't be drunk from anymore!
> "I know we will have to have (=3Ddrink) the dewdrops.
> "Will gold and steel pour into our hands again sometime?
>=20
> (Note: the verb bluil- is usually transitive, used
> for tears or blood. Here it's middle voice: gold and
> steel falling themselves into our hands.)
That's perfectly comprehensible!=20
>=20
>=20
> > > Nai a! Smasin sian funt i dimel,
> > > dimai tanq=E9th famp navrrovuit.
> > > A i tamal m=E9avalth qualnail=FCn!
> > > Mevnen dhrithn qat=E0drefuit ta!
> > > N=FCs sian gevadh dhiodil l=F6'ss=F6sik
> > > on rroses nikerg i mairhadh!
> >
> > Look! Beyond our ship's green prow
> > Everything green now comes near.
>=20
> "Look! Beyond our ship, green,"
>=20
> where _dimel_ "green" is nominalized
>=20
> "everything's green, now we come near (it)"
I didn't know what to do with the two forms
of green.  My interpretation, alas, was hasty
and a little permissive!

> > Oh see the white seagulls!
> > I so wish to grasp the shore, yes!
> > Into our eyes all the sea's salt
> > Flows quickly PRT tears.
>=20
> "Into our eyes hurrily flow
>  all the tears like the sea's salt"
Well, actually, I'd thought of that too.
But I wasn't sure of the PRT.
=20
> > What is this partitive particle that
> > we're supposed to ignore?
>=20
> It has several functions. The most important is
> partitive, like _de_/_des_ in French, as John
> Cowan deduced already -- it's used before mass
> nouns like "gold", "steel", and before countable
> nouns to show indefiniteness (in the daughter
> languages it becomes an indefinite article).
But why ignore it?  It may be unexpressed in=20
English, except by "some," but it's an important
concept.
=20
> It's also "genitive" in some constructions.
> For example, _P=E1lmadhel i themar_ "the story
> of P=E1lmadhel". This use is formal or poetic, and
> restricted to certain associative relationships
> (where the normal gen. case is not used).
Nice!

> It can also be "compositive/partitive":
> _okloth i =EDdanqan_ "a handful of berries".
>=20
> It has yet another function, which is probably
> the most important one, marking the direct object
> of certain ditransitive verbs. Commonly, the DO
> is marked by the accusative case, but in ditrans
> verbs the DO is preceded by _i_, and the acc.
> marks the *secondary* object (generally a destination).
> For example:
>=20
> _i  okloth  qged  porr sarn_
> PRT berries gives he   I.ACC
> "He gives me berries"
>=20
> When I discovered I was doing this, I got surprised
> and tried to think of a replacement (a dative case).
> It's obviously similar to the English syntax
> (the dative pronoun is actually accusative). I've
> rationalized this by taking my "accusative" as
> an "objective" case -- the case used to mark
> the objects that are affected most by the action
> of the verb. I don't know if this has a name...
>=20
> Another example:
>=20
> _farenavdr=FCnsien    i   b=F9rth_
>  NEG.become_sad.OBJ PRT words
> "words of consolation"
> ("words in order not to get sad"
>=20
> Also with some common verbs like _ladhden_ "to have":
>=20
> _i  olmar ladhden_
> PRT home  have.INF
> "to have a home"
>=20
> (where "have" doesn't imply "take" or in alienable
> possession).
>=20
> Guess that's all. :)
>=20
> > Love the word meavalth for "seagulls."
> > Weren't you also the author of "smalk" for
> > "skeleton"?  I'd love to borrow it!  I
> > think I'd also like to make meavalth,
> > spelled _meavalht_ in Teonaht, the name
> > of a special kind of seagull, perhaps the
> > "curlew."  Permission?  <G>
>=20
> I'd be honored! Just FYI: _m=E9aval_ "seagull"
> is _meaf_ "fish" + _hal_ "bird". Not very nice
> etimology... I also have _tr=E9barhal_ "sacred
> bird" for a mythological creature  equivalent to
> a dragon. And yes, _smalk_ was Drasel=E9q for
> "skeleton". But your compliments are making me
> blush! <not a reason to stop :) >
Great!  Disregard my other post, then.  These will
go into the main glossary with an etymological note.
Thanks for the extra information!  And I promise to
be less hasty and more observant of your next conlang
translation project.  Just be very very explicit!

Sally =20

P.S.  I liked the "th" ending on meaval; it's obviously
a suffix.  Would you care to explain?  No reason why the
Teonim might not adopt it in this form, but their=20
philologists should be a little more knowledgeable!