Re: A saga for translation

Sally Caves <scaves@...> wrote:
> but I'm stalled on the partitive particle, which
> you tell us to ignore.  How can we ignore it?  It
> links concepts in obviously important ways. =20
Sorry! I clarify below.
Now let me correct some of your translations
if you don't mind...

> > Smasin au getnit on fika,
> > g=E4mb b=FCrthon famp g=E9ntsimek.
> Beyond the stern of my ship, all the roots
> Dry up, they all let go now.
These are verbless:
"Beyond the stern (are) all roots,
dry (are) all of them, now they are gone"

_g=E4mb_ is the short participle of _g=E4mban_
"to be dry", so it can mean "dry" or "drying".
As you see, modifiers precede heads (except
for subordinate clauses).

There are several participles for each verb.
An example with _g=E4mban_:

Short participle: _g=E4mb_ "dry, drying" (middle or active)
Active participle: _g=E4mbal_ "dry, being dry"
Long active pple: _g=E4mb=E0n_ "drying" (more adverbial than adj.)
Passive participle: _g=E4'mbantan_ "dried"


> > Smasin au getnit prant padhanth,
> > lostel b=FCrthon, qek k=E4s? qek i untur?
> > A funin famp farqololimb olusst!
> > Qreven t=F6m=F6n i =E4lan l=E1dhasuit.
> > N=FCs sian =EDdanhadh i gal i stef
> > nots=FCr not=FCr qualbl=FAilotaqeik ke?
>=20
> Beyond the boat's stern (are) many waves;
> They are cold; are they friends? foes?
> Oh, no longer will the rivers be drunk from.
> I know that by force I will have the dewdrops
> (and here I can't follow you at all.  PRT
> seems essential to the meaning of the poem,
> and yet you counsel us to "ignore it.")
> I know that by force or I will force the dewdrops
> into our hands PRT gold, PRT steel,
> Will we be dropped sometime?
I understand your confusion. More or less that
could be:

"... are they friends? are they foes?
"Oh, rivers that won't be drunk from anymore!
"I know we will have to have (=3Ddrink) the dewdrops.
"Will gold and steel pour into our hands again sometime?

(Note: the verb bluil- is usually transitive, used=20
for tears or blood. Here it's middle voice: gold and
steel falling themselves into our hands.)
=20

=20
> > Nai a! Smasin sian funt i dimel,
> > dimai tanq=E9th famp navrrovuit.
> > A i tamal m=E9avalth qualnail=FCn!
> > Mevnen dhrithn qat=E0drefuit ta!
> > N=FCs sian gevadh dhiodil l=F6'ss=F6sik
> > on rroses nikerg i mairhadh!
>=20
> Look! Beyond our ship's green prow
> Everything green now comes near.
"Look! Beyond our ship, green,"

where _dimel_ "green" is nominalized

"everything's green, now we come near (it)"


> Oh see the white seagulls!
> I so wish to grasp the shore, yes!
> Into our eyes all the sea's salt
> Flows quickly PRT tears.
"Into our eyes hurrily flow
 all the tears like the sea's salt"

> What is this partitive particle that
> we're supposed to ignore? =20
It has several functions. The most important is
partitive, like _de_/_des_ in French, as John
Cowan deduced already -- it's used before mass
nouns like "gold", "steel", and before countable
nouns to show indefiniteness (in the daughter
languages it becomes an indefinite article).

It's also "genitive" in some constructions.
For example, _P=E1lmadhel i themar_ "the story
of P=E1lmadhel". This use is formal or poetic, and
restricted to certain associative relationships
(where the normal gen. case is not used).

It can also be "compositive/partitive":
_okloth i =EDdanqan_ "a handful of berries".

It has yet another function, which is probably
the most important one, marking the direct object
of certain ditransitive verbs. Commonly, the DO
is marked by the accusative case, but in ditrans
verbs the DO is preceded by _i_, and the acc.=20
marks the *secondary* object (generally a destination).
For example:

_i  okloth  qged  porr sarn_
PRT berries gives he   I.ACC
"He gives me berries"

When I discovered I was doing this, I got surprised
and tried to think of a replacement (a dative case).
It's obviously similar to the English syntax
(the dative pronoun is actually accusative). I've
rationalized this by taking my "accusative" as
an "objective" case -- the case used to mark
the objects that are affected most by the action
of the verb. I don't know if this has a name...

Another example:

_farenavdr=FCnsien    i   b=F9rth_
 NEG.become_sad.OBJ PRT words
"words of consolation"
("words in order not to get sad"


Also with some common verbs like _ladhden_ "to have":

_i  olmar ladhden_
PRT home  have.INF
"to have a home"

(where "have" doesn't imply "take" or in alienable
possession).

Guess that's all. :)


> Love the word meavalth for "seagulls."
> Weren't you also the author of "smalk" for
> "skeleton"?  I'd love to borrow it!  I
> think I'd also like to make meavalth,
> spelled _meavalht_ in Teonaht, the name
> of a special kind of seagull, perhaps the
> "curlew."  Permission?  <G>
I'd be honored! Just FYI: _m=E9aval_ "seagull"
is _meaf_ "fish" + _hal_ "bird". Not very nice
etimology... I also have _tr=E9barhal_ "sacred
bird" for a mythological creature  equivalent to
a dragon. And yes, _smalk_ was Drasel=E9q for
"skeleton". But your compliments are making me=20
blush! <not a reason to stop :) >


--Pablo Flores