Re: CHAT: R: Italian Particles

Raymond Brown wrote:
> At 4:51 pm +1200 18/4/00, andrew wrote:
> >Am 04/17 14:30  Mangiat yscrifef:
> >> Weak subjective proclitic forms:
> >> they are used in the verbal conjugation, they come before the verb and
they
> >> are formally a reduplication of the personal pronoun.
> >> 1st sing : ego>e'>a _ not so much used anynore
> >> 2nd sing : te>ta _ always used
> >> 3rd sing : ille>il>el>al
> >>                illa>la _ always used
> >> 1st and 2nd plur : a < 1st sing _ in the 2nd plur is not so much used
> >> anymore
> >> 3rd plur : illi>li>i _ it is not anymore used
> >
> >Hmm.  I'm just wondering if this feature could be adapted for Brithenig
> >(Celtic substrata and all that) and how.
>
> Umm - seems to me stretching things a bit to see a connexion between the
> use of subject _proclitics_ with the modern Celtic habit (except in Breton
> [and modern Carnish?]) of _suffixing_ the subject pronoun to conjugated
> verb forms.
>
> Personally, I see no evidence of Celtic substrate in this, only a
> development of the pan-Romance use of pre-verbal pro-complements.  As some
> have observed, modern colloquial French shows movements in the same
> direction.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> At 9:13 pm +0100 16/4/00, yl-ruil wrote:
> >Out of interest,
> >in the Celtic languages virtually all verbs are prefixed by a particle
but
>
> 'virtually all' seems a bit of a hyperbole IMHO.
Erm, Cornish prefixes a particle to all verbs except affirmative answers: "a
welough-why an chy? gwelaf" "do you see the house? I see". Same in Welsh and
(to some extent) Breton.

> Prefixed particles are used in all, it is true, but their functions and
> origins are various.  Breton, which has almost uniquely developed the V2
> word order (IIRC 'modern' Cornish - as opposed to Unified & Kemmyn - also
> does the same) usually prefixes 'a(z)' or 'e(z)' which are relative
> particles, tho IIRC when the verb itself is fronted as the verb-noun, the
> main verb being the auxiliary 'to do', there is no prefix.
Unified Cornish also uses the particles a (cf Bretom a, not sure of the
welsh form) and y (Breton e, Welsh yr)

> Without checking in detail, the Gaelic languages prefix negative and
> interrogative particles; I don't recall any before positive verbs except
> past tenses.
Admittedly, when I say "Celtic" I generally mean P-Celtic, as I know no
Q-Celtic, so I was being hyperbolous.

> Welsh is rather more complicated in that the literary & spoken forms
behave
> differently.  For the positive frtms of the synthetic tenses the literary
> language has no procltics, but the colloquial language usually
> procliticizes 'fe' in the South or 'mi' in the North.  With the verb 'to
> be', however, we find the reverse: while the literary language has the
> proclitics 'y(r)' in the positive forms, the spoken language drops 'y'
> entirely, while 'yr' leaves only 'r-'.
Same happens in Cornish for the periphrastic tenses: "theram ow tysky
Kembrek", from "yth-eram ow tysky Kembrek", equivalent to the Welsh "rydyw
i'n dysgu Cymraeg", from "yr ydyw fi'n dysgu Cymraeg".

>  The interrogative proclitic 'a' &
> negative 'ni(d)' is normally dropped in the spoken language (leaving only
> the required mutations).
And in Breton, gomprenan "I understand", from a gomprenan. But the point is
that _some form_ of the particle is prefixed, even if it is just one
consonant, or a mutation.

> But in any case, none of these proclitics are _subject_ proclitics as in
> Friulan & the GalloItalic (or is it ItaloGallic ?) dialects.  Maybe,
> however, this wasn't implied.
'Twasn't ;)

Dan
> Ray.
----
Bengesko niamso.
Cursed German.
----
Dan Morrison (http://www.geocities.com/yl_ruil/index.html)