Re: /x/ and 'inter-Germanic' (was: Intergermansk)

Pascal A. Kramm wrote:
> On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 11:55:33 +0100, Benct Philip Jonsson <bpj@...> wrote:
>
>
>>The newest phonetics course book uses /x\/ for 'sj' and /s\/ for
>>'tj', which overall seems reasonable.  All we need now is to get
>>the IPA to include the proper [8\] symbol; it's no fun to have to
>>use cludges like Ê&#65533;Ì&#65533; (U+029A U+031D) or u\_O.  Properly it could be
>>[2_O] but that looks even worse when you already have [2].
>
>
> Care to explain what sounds you mean by /x\/ and [8\]?
> They're not on the Cxs table...
[x\] *is* on the chart among the "other symbols": a co-articulated
(simultaneous) [x] and [S].  It is the version of the Swedish "sj"
sound which is recommended for newsreaders and such people, although
it is a minority usage.  Most often it is heavily lip-rounded as well,
and so comes dangerously close to [f] when transmitted in a noisy
channel, as radio often is -- says I whose father used what can only
be described as [x_p\] (simultaneous [x] and [p\] for the "sj" sound.

[8\] is Andreas's and mine ad_hoc symbol for the Swedish "long"(*)
"u" sound, which is properly [2_w] (labialized(**) [2]) or [8_w_+]
if you will.  Since the sound is phonologically "related" to [8]
(the "short"(*) "u" sound we want a symbol similar to |8| rather than
to |2| for this sound.  The Swedish Dialect Alphabet has a special
sign for this sound, but the IPA for some reason refuses to adopt it.

(*) In normative Swedish pronunciation there are [8] and [2_w:]
which are, if you regard vowel length as secondary, realizations
of a single phoneme /8/.  In Sweden normative pronunciation has
little relevance except when hiring newsreaders and as a model
for foreign learners, and in many lects, including mine, there
are two phonemes /8/ and /2_w/ which occur both long and short.

(**) Ladefoged's "A Course in Phonetics" describes the difference
between labialization and over-rounding so that labialization
is to bring the middle of the lips closer together while over-
rounding is bringing the corners of the lips closer together.
With these definitions Swedish "long u" is labialized while
Swedish /y/ us over-rounded, making the traditional Swedish
terms in-rounding and out-rounding thankfully superflous!
--

/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se

         Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant!
                                             (Tacitus)