Re: Elves and Ill Bethisad

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jörg Rhiemeier" <joerg_rhiemeier@...>
To: <CONLANG@...>
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 9:32 PM
Subject: Re: Elves and Ill Bethisad


> I notice that my mention of the "Elves and Ill Bethisad" affair
> has stirred quite a bit of discussion.
>
> On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 17:24:17 -0400,
> John Cowan <cowan@...> wrote:
>
> > J?rg Rhiemeier scripsit:
> >
> > > I feel reluctant to re-introduce them to Ill Bethisad because
> > >
> > > (1) I think they put a strain on that world's framework;
> >
> > The other two points are personal to you, of course; but this one,
> > at least, is not the case.  The Elves are no more a problem than the
> > Kashubians.  And it neatly explains what IB-JRRT was up to.
>
> Well, it is indeed not so big a problem, but I found that
> I couldn't do what I wanted to given the state of Ill Bethisad.
> My ideas about the Elves just didn't fit the overall style
> of the world.
>
> > > (3) in my opinion, Ill Bethisad has moved into a direction
> > >     I don't prefer.
> >
> > IMO, IB has moved in so many directions simultaneously that there is
> > no longer much point in speaking of it "moving into a direction".
> > I regret that some people have bailed out, and it's plain that some
> > cultures (like the Fortunatians) couldn't possibly fit there: the
> > whole of history is inconsistent.
>
> This is part of the problem.  The history is *grossly* inconsistent,
> there are too many things that clash with each other to mention.
> It is true that my Elves would not make things worse, but I don't
> want to toss them into that bin.
Wait a minute?  Where?  The history has been revamped from time to time, so
there's bound to be a little inconsistency.  To be honest, none of us knows
the whole history.

> It also struck me that the timeline shows a massive shortage of
> progressive politics.  There are still quasi-feudal social structures
> in Dunein; human sacrifices on the Arvorec islands; environmantalism
> exists mainly in the totalitarian, back-to-the-stone-age form
> of ecotopism, etc.
Et who says that it has to be a nice history?  It's pretty godawful in some
places, but what's wrong with that?

> > > I have gone through that hassle *twice*, and it ended in
> > > frustration on both sides both times.  Costentin/Padraic seems
> > > to have disliked my "Elves" from the start, though Andrew
> > > welcomed them to Ill Bethisad and John liked them too.
> >
> > And I still do.
>
> Thank you!  But that doesn't mean that I am obliged to re-enter
> Ill Bethisad.  It is still my decision which shared worlds
> I join with which contributions.  I actually considered re-joining
> Ill Bethisad several times, not with the Elves, but with Germanech,
> but that too would clash with several other factors.
>
> >       Adding to IB's time-depth is a Good Thing, which is
> > one reason that I thought Judajca was an excellent addition.  IB is
> > a great stew, and adding more flavor(s) can only help it.
>
> I am not sure about adding more flavors only helping it.
> To me, Ill Bethisad is a chaotic mess with way too many different
> "flavors" already.  Each author seems to have its own idea of
> what the world of Ill Bethisad looks like, resulting in a patchy,
> inconsistent world where no-one really knows what is going on.
No, no, no, I know it can look like that, but the truth is, everyone is
fairly sure, on the whole.  Each nation has a different flavour, but it all
works together.

> It is a tell-tale sign, I think, that Andrew Smith, who as we
> all know set the thing in motion initially, has withdrawn
> from Ill Bethisad altogether.
It's his choice.  But I think the main reason would be that when a world
goes beyond a creator's control, they often no longer wish to be a part of
it.

> > > But as Padraic is the one where all the threads run together,
> >
> > Umm, I think both he and I would contest that!
>
> Well, at least he is running the web site, which gets quite close
> to a central role in the project.
True.  But the only true resource is posts on Conculture, Conlang, and
Sessiwn Kemres.

> > I don't recall disliking them at all - but I
> > suspect that's all water passed through the dike
> > now.
>
> Well, you never seemed to be very happy with them, judging
> from your comments back then.  And you were damn hard to
> deal with.
Impressions are important things.  Don't be hasty with your judgements.