Re: Elves and Ill Bethisad

I notice that my mention of the "Elves and Ill Bethisad" affair
has stirred quite a bit of discussion.

On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 17:24:17 -0400,
John Cowan <cowan@...> wrote:

> J?rg Rhiemeier scripsit:
>
> > I feel reluctant to re-introduce them to Ill Bethisad because
> >
> > (1) I think they put a strain on that world's framework;
>
> The other two points are personal to you, of course; but this one,
> at least, is not the case.  The Elves are no more a problem than the
> Kashubians.  And it neatly explains what IB-JRRT was up to.
Well, it is indeed not so big a problem, but I found that
I couldn't do what I wanted to given the state of Ill Bethisad.
My ideas about the Elves just didn't fit the overall style
of the world.

> > (3) in my opinion, Ill Bethisad has moved into a direction
> >     I don't prefer.
>
> IMO, IB has moved in so many directions simultaneously that there is
> no longer much point in speaking of it "moving into a direction".
> I regret that some people have bailed out, and it's plain that some
> cultures (like the Fortunatians) couldn't possibly fit there: the
> whole of history is inconsistent.
This is part of the problem.  The history is *grossly* inconsistent,
there are too many things that clash with each other to mention.
It is true that my Elves would not make things worse, but I don't
want to toss them into that bin.

It also struck me that the timeline shows a massive shortage of
progressive politics.  There are still quasi-feudal social structures
in Dunein; human sacrifices on the Arvorec islands; environmantalism
exists mainly in the totalitarian, back-to-the-stone-age form
of ecotopism, etc.

> > I have gone through that hassle *twice*, and it ended in
> > frustration on both sides both times.  Costentin/Padraic seems
> > to have disliked my "Elves" from the start, though Andrew
> > welcomed them to Ill Bethisad and John liked them too.
>
> And I still do.
Thank you!  But that doesn't mean that I am obliged to re-enter
Ill Bethisad.  It is still my decision which shared worlds
I join with which contributions.  I actually considered re-joining
Ill Bethisad several times, not with the Elves, but with Germanech,
but that too would clash with several other factors.

>       Adding to IB's time-depth is a Good Thing, which is
> one reason that I thought Judajca was an excellent addition.  IB is
> a great stew, and adding more flavor(s) can only help it.
I am not sure about adding more flavors only helping it.
To me, Ill Bethisad is a chaotic mess with way too many different
"flavors" already.  Each author seems to have its own idea of
what the world of Ill Bethisad looks like, resulting in a patchy,
inconsistent world where no-one really knows what is going on.

It is a tell-tale sign, I think, that Andrew Smith, who as we
all know set the thing in motion initially, has withdrawn
from Ill Bethisad altogether.

> > But as Padraic is the one where all the threads run together,
>
> Umm, I think both he and I would contest that!
Well, at least he is running the web site, which gets quite close
to a central role in the project.

On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 16:07:32 -0700,
Costentin Cornomorus <elemtilas@...> wrote:

> [...]
>
> > > I have gone through that hassle *twice*, and
> > > it ended in
> > > frustration on both sides both times.
> > > Costentin/Padraic seems
> > > to have disliked my "Elves" from the start,
>
> Sir, you may address me in the second person. I
> am present, accounted for and am addressing you!
I know!  I used the 3rd person because the 2nd person is rather
ambiguous in a message broadcast to hundreds of people.

> I don't recall disliking them at all - but I
> suspect that's all water passed through the dike
> now.
Well, you never seemed to be very happy with them, judging
from your comments back then.  And you were damn hard to
deal with.

> > > But as Padraic is the one where all the
> > > threads run together
> >
> > Umm, I think both he and I would contest that!
>
> Certainly. I have relatively little to do with
> IB. I just make sure the fire is stoked and the
> web page is updated.
Well, that is quite much.  You keep the web site, and
in a way, you are thus in control what is "canonical"
in IB.  (BTW: Mindon Gwar is still on your map of Kemr.
That was an Elvish city, and thus it doesn't exist
in Ill Bethisad.)

> [...]
>
> > Andrew and I came up with the idea of starting
> > Ill Bethisad all over again,
>
> Curiouser and curiouser. Extremely curious, in
> fact...
>
> > a project that later received the name
> > "Dragon & Star" after the heraldic devices of >
> Kemr and the Elves. However, Dragon & Star has >
> seen little work by either Andrew or me so far.
>
> Hm. Shame.
It seems to please you that Dragon & Star hasn't made
substantial progress yet, and your comments seem to
imply that you take the mere existence of D&S
as an offence.  I apologize to you if I mis-interpret
you.  No, I can assure you that we don't mean to offend
*anyone*.  It is that Andrew and I thought that we could
do with a common framework for Brithenig and the Elves
without entangling ourselves with the chaotic mess
Ill Bethisad has become.  We both have ideas about our
concultures that no longer fit into what IB has become,
and thus we created Dragon & Star to explore them.

Greetings,

Jörg.

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